Let's talk tech (Now with Glossary)!

[animenologist offline]

We have decided that the avatars are merely wireframes, and the actual conciousness is stored in a seperate data-bank. And the 'iffy' question of howm any senses exist in Lyoko has never been resolved because it seems to change frequently (how can one feel pain without having a sense of touch?)

After re-reading through the posts, this in particular caught my eye. Pain is felt through sensory receptors called nociceptors. Its found at the ends of other sensory neurons and are used to signal when certain stimulas would be harmful to the tissue it surrounds. Its not related to only touch. Its the reason why you can have toothaches, headaches, or feel pain from torn ligaments, strained tendons, heart attacks, and what not, even though those organs aren't used to touch. So really, pain is intertwined with all the other senses. Like if you hear a loud noise, it has the potential to damage tissue in the ear, so you feal pain from it. Same when you sometimes strain your eyes, you feel pain from overstimulating it.

Actually, I'd like to challenge Jeremie's view that on Lyoko, that there are only 2 senses, sight and hearing. Touch seems to also be allowed on Lyoko. Or to make it more general, the Lyoko form also has access to what they call the somatic senses, the sense of touch (preassure), thermoception, and nociception (pain). Now it has been shown as common occurrence that nociception is present, so I won't get into that.

Thermoception is a feeling of temperature changes. Unfortunately, there is only one piece of evidence that shows thermoception to exist. It was in Vertigo, just before Odd was about to take his swim to rescue Aelita, he dipped his foot into the water, then immediately pulled back, to show that the water was cold, atleast colder than what is normally tolerated in the Polar Region. Though this can be rationalized with Odd being Odd and he has a thing for being the funny man even in dire situations.

Sense of touch is a for the feeling of pressure. In certain episodes, they have seemed to have a sense of pressure. This kinda goes back to nociception. In multiple episodes, there is a feeling of pain associated with pressure, so this implies that they can feel pressure. If you can't feel pressure, that means you won't have a reaction to pressure. Again, in Vertigo, when Aelita first tried to enter the tower, while the anti-virus was still running, he hit her head on the tower entrance and felt pain. Thus pressure was applied to her head in when she walked into the tower, causing her pain. This also happened to Odd in Missing Link and Yumi in Is Anybody Out There?, where extreme pressure from the the falling ceiling and the closing walls caused them pain, implying that they sensed pressure. Also kinda explains why Ulrich was straining so much against the megatank in Code: Earth and Contact, when the force of its blast was being applied to him as he was holding it off.

Agree, disagree, add on, subtract, feel free for to respond. Its the only way I'll learn.

[comex offline]

Odd also says "Oh great, more cold" in Cold War- another example of thermoception.


Now, as for the corrupted data thing. When the programs are off (there is nothing on the screen), they feel real pain and don't get that crackle of electricity around the affected organ. I think that they would have had visible damage if the programs hadn't been restored. So the question is, why would someone (Jeremie) redirect damage from Lyoko-physically to corrupting the data?

[animenologist offline]

Interesting thoughts. I always considered that pain was a natural reaction to having your neural system replicated into your avatar. So theoretically you should have all your senses. The reason why taste and smell are left out, is because there is an abscence of it. While on Lyoko, you don't need to eat, so there is no food, and thus nothing to taste. Also there is no air on Lyoko, thus no smell. Though I can't say for sure.

I also thought that the lp system was set up as a fail safe against injury to the nervous system. Even though its not your actual nervous system, you still feel pain feedback and too much of that in one session can lead to shock. Reason why Odd and Yumi collapsed after their sudden squishing in Sector 5. But your idea is good aswell. Though I'm not sure about the damage to the actual player data.

It could also be that too much damage causes the avatars to decompile and the kids devirtualized. It probably works in the same principle as the vehicles. The vehicles are decompiled after sustaining too much damage, and Jeremie has to go through the process of recompiling it before, he can excecute the vehicles again. The avatars could be forcefully decompiled and the process of recompiling the avatars would be a much longer process than vehicles, given how complex it is. That's why the kids can't get back into Lyoko immediately after a forceful devirtualization. In theory though, it should be possible to shut of the devirtualization, by getting rid shutting off the devirt program and the scanners. It happened in Common Interest when the power died, and Odd and Ulrich were unable to devirtualize themselves. Actually, it could be possible that the normal devirtualization program is another failsafe for Xana against unauthorized usage, like how Carthage works. Would explain why the devirtualization programs are in the super computer if our original thoughts are accurate.

And as for what Odd said in Cold War, his actual quote was "Oh no! More ice!" Think of it like this, he has just wandered through a blizzard at -90 degrees Celsius. If I were him, the last thing I would want to see is ice. Kinda reminds me of this one guy who writes editorials concerning his experiences in Japan. In one of his editorials, he said he went ballistic after one of his friends asked him, on his vactation back to America, if he would like to go out for Japanese food. Same principle can apply. He got so tired of seeing ice, that he was in some discomfert to be transferred to the region that reminded him of ice.

[comex offline]

But that's the same thing as when Nicholas shut off the devirtualization program. And they obviously didn't like fighting in those circumstances.

Damge the wire-frame enough and all that data decompiles

Assuming that getting hit is equivalent to corrupting data (maybe because as a "hole" is created in the Lyoko body, random particles are allowed to seep through) then that would make sense... maybe because, over and over, some sort of check for data integrity fails.


Eh? You said that it is a worse situation with the transfer protocols being deactivated by Nicholas?? But, if that were true than the LP system would apply as normal and they wouldn't really feel pain. In fact, it'd be all the worse for them because they wouldn't know to shield themselves from attacks. But that's not what happened in any case.

[comex offline]

How so? In Common Interest as well they felt pain from attacking themselves.

[DL offline]

The hovor board most likely has a small neural link to allow for certain manuvers and such. But It would most likely be a very small and limited one seeing as how if it were any more extensive XANA would probably attack the vehicles as well (to hinter the team even further or in addition to a regular attack). Either that or Odd was just pulling it with his tail because seriously how easy would it be to miss that?

[YDV offline]

Agck! Slow down, guys! Jeez!

Great points on the neural feedback blocks and ideas on why you could feel pain in Lyoko and everything, everyone.

But... I thought they didn't feel ANY pain at all, only being knocked by by the force of the blow. Isn't that why Yumi was so surprised that she felt the hit?

Actually I have a theory for this. Maybe they DO feel a little pain, but it's mostly nulled by the added-on superhuman attributes in the avatar file. Add that and the neural-feedback blocks combined and a laser bolt to the chest would feel nothing more than perhaps a pinch.

((I feel like I'm not contributing to this thread anymore.. it seems like all I do is come in here after sschool and agree with everybody, and occasionally ask a question...))

Oh yeah, and I did notice the hoverboard following Odd. Probably had somethign to do with a neural link. (Also the pseudo-psionic way things work in Lyoko.. for instance, Odd described firing a laser arrow by concentrating on your target, Yumi's TK, Aelita's.. well... singing... etc.)

[YDV offline]

Aww, thanks! (leave it to TB3 to make you want to stay by threatening to shove large fictional objects up your, um... heh.)

I kind of like the neural blocker idea, though I still think a Lyokoan Power is a dampener like the one you further explained.. I mean, they said that they could feel pain because "there wasn't anything on the screens." If Nicolas canceled out something through their PC's, wouldn't -all- their powers stop working? Unless there's a program that runs the special abilities that Jeremie keeps open.. it might make sense if it was Garage Kids-esque and he had to "charge" their weapons. But that program would be inside the avatar packets, which are actually on Lyoko... hmm. perplexing.

[YDV offline]

I believe he may be in the fabled "sixth sector." Or... perhaps our understanding of the Digital Sea is not as much as it could be. He might be there, somewhere.. perhaps under imprisonment by a Guardian. But then he wouldn't be able to activate a Tower, either.

I guess we'll just have to find out! ^-^;

[DL offline]

Well there are bound to be possiblities...maybe he got intergrated with the OS or some other program? Who knows...all I know is we will most likely find out pretty soon.

And to the dampeners. Maybe they need to be open on the console to allow them. Perhaps they need to be monitered so that nothing goes wrong and Nick just shut down that program.

[animenologist offline]

Well, 1 week and 2 days until we hit pay dirt. But that doesn't mean we can't speculate in the mean time. Anyways, I wanted to bring up the thought that in order to prevent devirtualizing, I still think that both the devirt program and the scanner need to be offline. In Routine, Xana prevented devirtualization by infecting himself. By our conclusions that we came to earlier, thats where the devirtualization program is held, since Jeremie attempted to fix the problem by working diredtly at the supercomputer. This than follows with what TB3 said that the devirt. program would force them to devirtualize and spread their data all over Lyoko. In The Chips are Down, Xana attempted the same thing, except he did it from the console, using Nicholas as his willing pawn. After coming to, Jeremie stated that Xana deactivated the scanners as his way to ensure their permanent death. I'm guess, if the devirt. program runs, with no scanners to reform them, the capacitors just empty its contents without rebuilding.

And remember, all constructive thoughts are welcomed. Its a treat to read everything and debate them, especially from the main contributors (that definately includes you, YDV) to this thread. They always have some of the most interesting ideas and the greatest reads, for which I give many thanks.

[Activated Tower offline]

I think he's in a part of Carthage we haven't seen yet. The gang usually just go into one room, push the button in, and go into the elevator room. I think it's possible that the elevator might have multiple stops, but we have only seen the first one. As for how he activated a tower, I'd assume he did it the same way XANA does.

[animenologist offline]

Unless someone has any questions, or disagreements with our current theories relating to devirtualization or the somatic senses, I believe we're currently done for now. Now I know how the early half of the 20th century felt when they thought they discovered all there is to know from the scientific world. Come on members of LF, toss us brainiacs a bone. Any thing out of the ordinary or inconsistent. There is no such thing as a bad idea as long as you have logic and evidence to back it up.

By the way, when we're wrapping up, how do we plan to finish writing it? Split up writing duties, or do we just summarize everything we've stated up to now in terms of current accepted theory, and let TB3 do it in his very eloquent fashion?

EDIT: Post 325 and page 14. I'm getting ready to bust out the virtual cake when we hit page 15!

[comex offline]

*shrug* I still think the part of the theory about how people are pixelized doesn't make much sense.

As for writing? I know I'm not exactly the most helpful contributor to this thread, but I vote that one person do it. Unless it's a long piece, joint writing tends to degrade the writing style.

[animenologist offline]

Does it not make sense because you don't understand what we're getting at or you don't understand because our theory is inconsistent with what was shown in the show?

If its the former, we can try to explain it to you as best as we can, but keep in mind that with any theory (even in the scientific sense), not everything can be explained away. There simply a few holes of evidence we're missing and we're doing the best we can to fill it in with what makes logical sense. We'll never explain everything one hundred percent accurate and correctly unless the creators do it and write it down for us. Until then, all we have is our theories.

If its the latter, show us some evidence that our theory is inconsistent. If the point is valid, we can have the theory open up to new debate and reform it, or if necessary, completely discard it for a new theory. It happens quite often on this thread. If you read through, a lot of our original theories are different (some to a high degree) then our current theories. For example, we originally thought that the avatars didn't have somatic senses, based on what Jeremie stated in a certain episode. But we found that to be inconsistent with what was shown in the Lyoko battles, as they had a sense of pressure and pain (though temperature seems to be a dead end), and thus changed it accordingly.

Giving dissent is alright, but give us evidence for why our current theory is inconsistent in order for it to be constructive, doesn't have to be a new theory, just some point where it can't possibly fit if our current theory is taken as is. Poking holes in our theories due to ignorance (both yours and ours) does not help us.

[Cassius335 offline]

By the way, when we're wrapping up, how do we plan to finish writing it? Split up writing duties, or do we just summarize everything we've stated up to now in terms of current accepted theory, and let TB3 do it in his very eloquent fashion?

When you do summarize it, could you put the summary in a different topic? Trying to follow this thread as is... very head-ache inducing.