Christians

[JesusFreak offline]

Yes, but that doesn't mean you can just walk around sinning and Beg for forgivness come Sunday.

[Tangent128 offline]

Right; everybody needs forgiveness, but you have to ask for it sincerely.

[Kamekai offline]

Yeah. I can't decide to kill somebody, and then just say I'm sorry.

Not... that I'm planning... um... to kill somebody, that is. heh heh- Oh, look at the time! I really must be going now, bye!

Oh, and I just wanna point out that my name, in fact, is Christian.

[. offline]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UDoIBgiUAQ

This happens to be 3 favorite scenes from Dogma, Loki and Bartelbi (two fallen angels banished to the mortal realm till the end of time.... and after the rapture they'll be forced to sit outside the pearly white gates) on their quest to get back into heaven decide as well to get back on God's good side by raining hellfire and brimstone against the sinners they come across on their way to New Jeresey.

And well, suffice to say, theres a reason why I always say "Bless You" when someone sneeazes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWshPH_jsjQ

[ambitiouslove offline]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UDoIBgiUAQ

This happens to be 3 favorite scenes from Dogma, Loki and Bartelbi (two fallen angels banished to the mortal realm till the end of time.... and after the rapture they'll be forced to sit outside the pearly white gates) on their quest to get back into heaven decide as well to get back on God's good side by raining hellfire and brimstone against the sinners they come across on their way to New Jeresey.

I really liked Dogma. (Well, most of Kevin Smith's movies in general, actually). I thought it was a little ridiculous that there were people protesting the movie and they never saw it( and refused to). Kevin Smith wasn't making fun of religion, he was just trying to present new ideas and make people think a little.

I'm Agnostic and leaning more on the Atheist side, and I don't believe in any religion. I live in the Bible Belt of the South and it was always forced on me. Personally, I get offended when someone tells me I need to pray or talk to God, because I think it's a little disrespectful that someone isn't considering that not everyone believes in the same God. I won't go into my personal beliefs here any further, though, I'm not trying to offend anyone on here, either. I just had to comment on Dogma xD

[Sithking Zero offline]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UDoIBgiUAQ

This happens to be 3 favorite scenes from Dogma, Loki and Bartelbi (two fallen angels banished to the mortal realm till the end of time.... and after the rapture they'll be forced to sit outside the pearly white gates) on their quest to get back into heaven decide as well to get back on God's good side by raining hellfire and brimstone against the sinners they come across on their way to New Jeresey.

I really liked Dogma. (Well, most of Kevin Smith's movies in general, actually). I thought it was a little ridiculous that there were people protesting the movie and they never saw it( and refused to). Kevin Smith wasn't making fun of religion, he was just trying to present new ideas and make people think a little.

I'm Agnostic and leaning more on the Atheist side, and I don't believe in any religion. I live in the Bible Belt of the South and it was always forced on me. Personally, I get offended when someone tells me I need to pray or talk to God, because I think it's a little disrespectful that someone isn't considering that not everyone believes in the same God. I won't go into my personal beliefs here any further, though, I'm not trying to offend anyone on here, either. I just had to comment on Dogma xD

Exactly! I have no problems with Christianity, but it was forced upon me in such a way that my beliefs were used as an excuse for why I needed god.

I'm not saying that I don't like God, or anything, I'm just saying that anything, if forced upon someone, may come across more harshly then intended.

I do believe that there are forces out there beyond our comprehension, God? Or Jesus? Maybe the angels, as well?

[JesusFreak offline]

Yes, There are Angels, but you are not supposed to worship them.

[. offline]

Yes, There are Angels, but you are not supposed to worship them.

I sure as heck wouldn't. Read Mark Twain's The Mysterious Stranger.

[Sithking Zero offline]

Yes, There are Angels, but you are not supposed to worship them.

I know that, but I never said I prayed to angels. The only angel people pray to is Lucifir (I DON'T PRAY TO HIM), and there's a good reason why people don't.

I was merely trying to think up powers beyond our mere mortal understandings.

[Gauntlet offline]

Yes, There are Angels, but you are not supposed to worship them.

I know that, but I never said I prayed to angels. The only angel people pray to is Lucifir (I DON'T PRAY TO HIM), and there's a good reason why people don't.

I was merely trying to think up powers beyond our mere mortal understandings.

You know, I've always wondered if that's just a preconceived notion. In video games, novels and films, the zealous cultists worship the devil, eat babies, and are just all around evil, not to mention they are said to worship the personification of evil, just to add the cherry on top.

How often is that true, though? LaVey's Satanic Bible, which has only been around for about 40 years, doesn't really stress anything particularly evil (children cannot be harmed, two parties cannot have sexual intercourse unless they give the "mating signal", etc.). It sounds like pretty moral stuff, in one light. Though, all of their credibility dissipates when you see the goat-head in a pentagram--they start looking like a bunch of goofy teenagers who worship whatever society oppresses. Luciferianism looks interesting, though; worshiping Lucifer before his attempt to usurp God's throne and his fall from Heaven.

...Sounds like stuff you'd find in a fantasy work, or some fiction writer who believes the "the antagonist must be part of a baby-feasting cult to be evil!" scheme is fresh. Ah.

[Sithking Zero offline]

Yes, There are Angels, but you are not supposed to worship them.

I know that, but I never said I prayed to angels. The only angel people pray to is Lucifir (I DON'T PRAY TO HIM), and there's a good reason why people don't.

I was merely trying to think up powers beyond our mere mortal understandings.

You know, I've always wondered if that's just a preconceived notion. In video games, novels and films, the zealous cultists worship the devil, eat babies, and are just all around evil, not to mention they are said to worship the personification of evil, just to add the cherry on top.

How often is that true, though? LaVey's Satanic Bible, which has only been around for about 40 years, doesn't really stress anything particularly evil (children cannot be harmed, two parties cannot have sexual intercourse unless they give the "mating signal", etc.). It sounds like pretty moral stuff, in one light. Though, all of their credibility dissipates when you see the goat-head in a pentagram--they start looking like a bunch of goofy teenagers who worship whatever society oppresses. Luciferianism looks interesting, though; worshiping Lucifer before his attempt to usurp God's throne and his fall from Heaven.

...Sounds like stuff you'd find in a fantasy work, or some fiction writer who believes the "the antagonist must be part of a baby-feasting cult to be evil!" scheme is fresh. Ah.

Too true, too true. Real evil people aren't like that at all- they're more like Osama Bin Laden, who do evil, monstrous things, but they do so because they believe that it's the right thing to do. And to them, what we do is considered evil as well.

I guess evil is sometimes just a point of view.

But still... if they do believe in Lucifir, then they should know that Lucifer himself isn't gonna win. I mean, in the Book of Revelations, don't they say that he's gonna lose in the end, and then cast down into the pit of fire for about a thousand years? Unless this is a strange, mixed-up definition of "Victory," I can't really say that he wins.

[Gauntlet offline]

But still... if they do believe in Lucifir, then they should know that Lucifer himself isn't gonna win. I mean, in the Book of Revelations, don't they say that he's gonna lose in the end, and then cast down into the pit of fire for about a thousand years? Unless this is a strange, mixed-up definition of "Victory," I can't really say that he wins.

Well, they probably don't care very much what the Bible says, just as much as a Christian doesn't believe in the practices of Buddhism. That's not to say that they (Satanists) are disrespectful and intolerant to other religions, but, all the same, they probably believe it's a bunch of baloney.

Anton LaVey, the founder of the Church of Satan, states that Satan is not viewed as a literal deity or entity, but as symbolic of Earthly values. Frankly, I'd say he's one smart chap if he wasn't such a hypocritical dork.

Edit: It is a little funny, though. I don't consider it a real religion, just a philosophical approach (Ayn Rand's objectivism, mainly) with a bunch of sugarcoated (or blood, if you feel it's more fitting for the CoS) rituals and ceremonies. It reads like a video game, really; the kind of stuff (I would think) you'd find in a D&D game. Pah.

[Lyoko Wario offline]

Just to add my $0.02:

The most dangerous villains are the ones who are convinced they are doing good.

And I have to say, lately I've been thinking about all this God stuff and it's starting to seem to me like there really may be a force outside our control, a "being" (for lack of a better word) similar to what we may call God. But I still don't trust any one particular religion. Religion has been tampered with throughout history by political forces and there are many aspects of it that I simply cannot trust or believe to have come from a divine source. I try not to be a bad person, but I'd rather not dedicate myself entirely to any particular faith.

[. offline]

Oh come on people, the world is VERY black and white despite what you want to think. Killing is wrong no matter WHAT the justification.

Example: Superman never kills Lex Luthor. In the scenario that Superman does, he then becomes Evil and the Justice League becomes the Justice Lords.

[Lola offline]

Yes, but that doesn't mean you can just walk around sinning and Beg for forgivness come Sunday.

I knew that

[TB3]

Oh come on people, the world is VERY black and white despite what you want to think. Killing is wrong no matter WHAT the justification.

Example: Superman never kills Lex Luthor. In the scenario that Superman does, he then becomes Evil and the Justice League becomes the Justice Lords.

Hmm, although I love the Superman analogy, I don't agree with the black and white arguement - when you cover extremes like murder, then yes, there are clearly defined precepts of good and evil.

However, what about day-to-day life - we all exist in the shades of grey - if we analysed our lives objectively then we could apply values of good and evil to every decision we make - but in the here and now, it's nigh impossible to judge that kind of stuff - most of the time we simply 'act' and then reflect later.

For example, I had an arguement with some friends lately by trying too hard to make a good impression - all the time I was behaving in a manner that I precieved as 'good' or 'right' - but on reflection, I probably came across as false and two-faced.

Another example: I have a habit of apologising every time I feel I've wronged someone - many time it's been pointed out to me that this worsens things, but still I feel an inner voice - my conscience, my moral side, whateveryouwanttocallit, telling me that saying 'sorry' in such a situation is right and good and the only option availible.

Just my thoughts - make what you will of them.

PS: Here's another anology - consider the Spiderman films - I wouldn't consider any of the villains to be 'evil' as such, but still they all end up on a path towards darkness despite often acting with the best of intentions i.e.

Flint Marco (the Sandman) turned to crime as the only means left to him of financing an operation to save his ailing daughter's life.

Norman Osborn (the Green Goblin) experimented on himself to save his company and twisted his mind into psychopathic scitzophrenia.

Otto Octavius (Doc Ock), sought to improve humanity's existance with his fusion generator, but accidentally killed his wife and left himself cybernetically fused with his mechanical arms. He then nearly destroyed NYC in trying to perfect his work, having finacing his new generator via a bank heist.

And Eddie Brock (Venom) was a normal guy reduced to the lowest of the low by the then-twisted Peter Parker, subsequently accidentally coming into contact with an alien being that channeled his frustration, humiliation and despair into the evil entity known as Venom.

[Sithking Zero offline]

Unfortunately, the Marvel villians that you mentioned... those stories all come from the Spiderman movies. Yes, the Green goblin's story is true, but Doc Ock, in the comics, pushed himself too hard, then went insane after waking up. Then he was just trying to kill everyone. Flint Marko (sandman) didn't have a daughter in the canon comics, but he did turn good after a while. And Eddie... I dunno. I forget.

[TB3]

Unfortunately, the Marvel villians that you mentioned... those stories all come from the Spiderman movies. Yes, the Green goblin's story is true, but Doc Ock, in the comics, pushed himself too hard, then went insane after waking up. Then he was just trying to kill everyone. Flint Marko (sandman) didn't have a daughter in the canon comics, but he did turn good after a while. And Eddie... I dunno. I forget.

That's why I stressed the films, not the comics - if there's one thing Sam Raimi does well, it's create nuanced characters who dance on the line between right and wrong.

[Sithking Zero offline]

Unfortunately, the Marvel villians that you mentioned... those stories all come from the Spiderman movies. Yes, the Green goblin's story is true, but Doc Ock, in the comics, pushed himself too hard, then went insane after waking up. Then he was just trying to kill everyone. Flint Marko (sandman) didn't have a daughter in the canon comics, but he did turn good after a while. And Eddie... I dunno. I forget.

That's why I stressed the films, not the comics - if there's one thing Sam Raimi does well, it's create nuanced characters who dance on the line between right and wrong.

Ah. Point well taken. I do know a few other examples of that sort of thing (bad guys trying to do good but are really doing evil), but I think it would work AGAINST the point I'm trying to make, 'cause some of these guys are pretty bad.

EDIT: WAIT! I GOT ONE THAT WORKS!!! DARTH VADER!!! The tipping point that led from his being a jedi to his becoming a Sith was because he was trying to save his wife! And then he killed everyone in the temple! But then he kinda killed his wife...

[Gauntlet offline]

Eddie Brock (Venom) is a nice example.

He was driven to suicide when an interview with a man who he thought was the serial killer when it turned out Spider-man had the real perpetrator; Brock's man was just a compulsive confessor. His false interview was a pitfall, and he was fired. The symbiote bonded with him, and then, yadda yadda. He's an interesting fellow, though. He's more focused on protecting the victims of the crime than solely killing the criminals. He's not into wealth or power--just a strong sense to kill Spider-man--but he does save people, multiple times. It makes for an interesting and dynamic "villain" (though antagonist is the better word for it, if not that then anti-hero).

On the black and white thing, I actually do agree, to an extent. You'd have to be foolish to think you can tell everything apart, though. I think there is a right and a wrong to everything (even with good intentions, some people do take the wrong path in live), but until you know the full details, it won't work. Look at the war in Iraq, for example--do you really think we're trying to liberate the country? If so, why do POWs, civilians, and our own troops die everyday? For oil? Oil let's our industry continue booming, and allows people to live beyond our ancestors hundreds of thousands of years ago, but is it really worth the lives of many young people shoved onto the battlefield? Did Iraq actually threaten the United States, or was it just a lie to rally us together for an attack? How much better is Bush than Saddam now, counting up their death tallies? 9/11; conspiracy? How much do we actually know before we can decide on something?

...Black and white, eh?

[TB3]

EDIT: WAIT! I GOT ONE THAT WORKS!!! DARTH VADER!!! The tipping point that led from his being a jedi to his becoming a Sith was because he was trying to save his wife! And then he killed everyone in the temple! But then he kinda killed his wife...

Excellent example - and also consider this dialogue:

OBI-WAN: Anakin, senator Palpatine is evil!
ANAKIN: Not to me he isn't!

One person's concepts of 'good' need not match anothers, and no-one can say for certain that their definition of good is the 'right' one, because from a human perspective, it's all subjective. In fact - simplifying things to the extremes of good and evil is what led to the Jedi downfall - thinking in extremes blinded them to the more subtle aspects of the Force and events around them.

[Chosen_one offline]

Anton LaVey, the founder of the Church of Satan, states that Satan is not viewed as a literal deity or entity, but as symbolic of Earthly values. Frankly, I'd say he's one smart chap if he wasn't such a hypocritical dork.

Yeah, their website does say that, but keep in mind that they worship themselves, and their most important holiday is each individual's birthday.

I don't know much about Christianity, but it seems interesting.

EDIT: WAIT! I GOT ONE THAT WORKS!!! DARTH VADER!!! The tipping point that led from his being a jedi to his becoming a Sith was because he was trying to save his wife! And then he killed everyone in the temple! But then he kinda killed his wife...

Excellent example - and also consider this dialogue:

OBI-WAN: Anakin, senator Palpatine is evil!
ANAKIN: Not to me he isn't!

One person's concepts of 'good' need not match anothers, and no-one can say for certain that their definition of good is the 'right' one, because from a human perspective, it's all subjective. In fact - simplifying things to the extremes of good and evil is what led to the Jedi downfall - thinking in extremes blinded them to the more subtle aspects of the Force and events around them.

That goes into an discussion I had last Thursday regarding morals. "Morals" can be defined as what one believes to be the correct and righteous way of doing things, while what society believes to be correct is called "ethics." Therefore, we can say that Hitler was one of the most moral people in history, but also one of the most unethical. (After all, he believed that by persecuting minorities he was doing the right thing and making room in Europe for Aryans. I'm not going to go on about Hitler, though, because he was one messed-up guy.)

[knifey offline]

OBI-WAN: Anakin, senator Palpatine is evil!
ANAKIN: Not to me he isn't!

Umm... I know this is off topic, buuuut... it was really like so:

Obi-wan: Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil!
Anakin: From my point of view, the Jedi are evil.

8D;

Yes I'm a Star Wars-tard with no life.

Carry on with whatever conversation you're having.

[TB3]

That goes into an discussion I had last Thursday regarding morals. "Morals" can be defined as what one believes to be the correct and righteous way of doing things, while what society believes to be correct is called "ethics." Therefore, we can say that Hitler was one of the most moral people in history, but also one of the most unethical. (After all, he believed that by persecuting minorities he was doing the right thing and making room in Europe for Aryans. I'm not going to go on about Hitler, though, because he was one messed-up guy.)

True - Hitler is an example of how no person is exclusively 'evil' - I highly recommend the film 'Downfall' (Der Untergang) for anyone who wants to see a very convincing performance detailling him on a personal level.

Curiously right now I'm holding a piece of Hitler's manor (The Berghof) in my hand - I was on holiday in Austria a while ago and one day we nipped over the border to see the Nazi complex known as the Obersalzberg - went up to Hitler's teahouse (the Eagle's Nest), ate in his former dining-room, and kicked-off fragments from the sole surviving stone of his manor.

And just for the record, I'm not a Nazi - when I went down to the bunkers in the area I found some neo-nazi graffitti and I'm proud to say I spat on it and then used the chunk of hitler-house-stone to scratch a 'peace' sign into the wall (insult to injury! )...and then I added the Eye of Xana!

[Overcaffeinated Sloth offline]

Guys, come on, Back on topic. If you wanna talk about Mervel and DC charachter, create a thread for it, Okay?

Actually, that wouldn't be a bad idea...

As for Christianity, I'm a Roman Catholic, so I went through all the CCD classes and stuff. But as the bad stuff with the church went on a few years ago, my mom pulled me out, so that kinda disrupted my education. After a few years, I went to a Methodist church a few towns away, and I was really happy there, because that's where my Dad and grandfather grew up, so I knew a lot of people there. But then there was this messed up thing with Youth group, and I stopped going there. Then About a year ago, I went to a Presbyterrian church with my mom, which was next to my Middle and High school. I really liked the topics they talkeed about there, and the Youth groups were a lot of fun. We could run around for an hour outside, ssocialize and make friends, and then sit and talk about topics that were decided by the director, and we'd find out on our own how it relates to god and life. Unfortunately, a lot of elders there didn't like how it was being taught, and the director was fired. So the parents took over, and I left for half a year to go to a cram school. But when I came back, the group had really changed, and I didn't like how the parents were teaching us things. They Started telling us that You're either a good christian boy or girl, you follow the bible completely, or you're going straight to you-know-where. And then we started watching Veggietales. It disturbed me how my friend CT actually knew the songs, and were singing it. So, as of last week, I've come out of the youth group there, and without a church.

But for my Views, I really think it all depends on the person. Humans, through evolution, are different in their own way, and completely unclassifyable, meaning you can't group people with one another and they'll all have the same opinions, so you can't have them go to only one church, where the views are different at every one. There's what, Millions of churches? How can you find one that's comfortable to you? Anyways, I really think that at Fifteen, I just don't want to accept God Right now, I'm not at that stage in my life yet. I might never be ready. But One day I might too.