LTT3 - Rewriting Physics since 2005!

[Kamekai offline]

This also brings up a question. [size=1](I can't believe I just typed "This also brings up a cancer".)[size=1] No, the SC doesn't completely rely on DNA. But it has to at least partially use it, Heck, it's two of the four vDNA helices (Correct spelling actually, FF is yelling at me ), if I'm not wrong. For example, we see Jeremie's ankle healed in False Start/Code Earth. I believe that the scanners would notice that if cells weren't in the correct place, it would correct the problem, adding more cells that were already specialized for that area, weather it be muscle, bone, lung, etc. tissue. Thus if cancer was the issue, could the SC not either automatically, or preferably manually (just to have confirmation) destroy and replace or repair and destroy unnecessary tissue to correct this? Or would major life threatening conditions be too complex for the SC

Feel free to shoot me down, I don't even know if I'm thinking straight. >.> <.< ()_()

In time, with correct development, then yes the Supercomputer and Scanners could be used to heal diseases (although it would probably be debated more than stem-cell research).

However, I honestly don't think Franz had the medical know-how to program such a function into it, and it would be extremely risky to leave such a function automatically up to the supercomp.

The simplest way for the supercomputer to heal someone as we have seen (also note that Yumi didn't have all those bruises she had midway through yesterday's episode when she came back from Lyoko) is just to switch to a back-up copy of the person's data - I'd imagine the supercomputer saves the last one or two scans per person to memory in order to have a backup of their data should stuff go wrong - thus to heal an injury (like Yumi's bruises or Jeremie's ankle), it's a simple matter for the supercomputer to reconstruct the body using their last saved back-up and merge it with their latest mental data - although, it would be doubly impressive if Odd had given it those instructions on his own initiative when he scanned her in (unlikely maybe, but hey - he's a computer whizz ).

As an afterthought, Jeremie probably scans himself once or twice a week in order to have an up-to-date record of his molecular data and in order to heal himself after all the punishment XANA gives him (I MEAN YESTERDAY HE GOT FREAKING ELECTROCUTED! )

Now, just to support the theory of using the scanners to heal someone, we have seen them be used to alter a person's structure on several occasions (turning Aelita invisible for example - note to self: check that episode out again for clarification) - however it goes all the more to show why screwing with the molecular structure is dangerous.

---

Please, please, please guys - debate all I've said above - if you find a mistake, make me crash and burn so we can perfect our ideas in light of the revelation of The Network!

That would make them a lot younger then everyone else their age in time, would it not? for example, if it had been a week since a Xana attack, and Odd (hehe) had grown slightly taller, changed his hairstyle, and got a sprained ankle before going in the scanner, etc. the SC would bring up a back-up of the last attack, making him lose all of the physical and molecular changes. Which might in some way explain Franz's craziness (besides the obvious reason ) in that his mind was way older than the rest of his body. And on that subject, he had to have been virtualized before to remember. (imagine if something went wrong, and Aelita woke up to never see her father again. meanie ) back on topic, apparently the SC would then save the new back-up. thus the gang would never get older. yet it's apparent they do, seeing how in season 2, Jeremie hit puberty, but then voice went back to normal. (may just be the VA's, but we have to take everything into account!)

Am I just raving, or may I be on to something?

[Boss Tamsy offline]

You could be. Hey a turtlewold. Let's make it into soup!

[Kamekai offline]

Any thoughts, Teebie?

[Tangent128 offline]

I just realized- "Crash Course" included several important hints as to the way the Tower-Tower transport system works. We now know that any Tower can be used for transport, but it appears that only Way Towers can be used to exit the Sector.

The question is, how does one decide one's destination? Does one concentrate on one's location, or does each Tower have a specific destination? The latter would require three Way Towers in a Sector, but that could well explain why two Ice Sector towers were called Way Towers in Season 3.

Anyway, I'll be reading HP7 tomorrow, but I should be back the next day or so.

[Kamekai offline]

well, maybe the way tower allows for transportation just between 2 sectors at a time, when you drop down the tower, it shows one data stream, and you can go either way. so you can go to an either adjacent sectors only, but not the sector opposite of your location.

does that explanation make sense?

And do we have a standing theory explaining the process of the RTTP?

[TB3]

well, maybe the way tower allows for transportation just between 2 sectors at a time, when you drop down the tower, it shows one data stream, and you can go either way. so you can go to an either adjacent sectors only, but not the sector opposite of your location.

does that explanation make sense?

And do we have a standing theory explaining the process of the RTTP?

I do believe you can travel between all the sectors via the way towers - my personal theory is that the data streams from the way towers converge in the Carthage tower, and from there you're sent to the appropriate tower, kinda like switching tracks in a railway marshalling yard.

Regarding the RTTP, yes we do have a standing theory:

When an RTTP occurs, the supercomputer communicates with itself in the past (via tachyons), streaming back data on all events that have occured since the Return co-ordinates entered, and also streaming back scans on all the kids mental data, allowing the supercomputer to reintergrate that data into the kids in the past via a permenant connection it has with them.

With the supercomputer aware of XANA's coming attack ('vaccinating' the target tower as it were) and the kids now posessing their 'future memories', from their perspective time has jumped backwards, when in reality time never stopped or reversed - events carry on, but on a different timeline to what occured before.

The 'white bubble' we see when an RTTP is triggered, is the visual representation of this timeline being erased.

---

It's just a theory, but one that we presented to Moonscoop and which they liked, so it seems fairly sturdy at this point.

[Tangent128 offline]

So, do the Towers read your mind for your destination?

[TB3]

So, do the Towers read your mind for your destination?

Possibly - maybe you only have the option of specifying which secot you want to go to, and not which part of that sector.

(pause)

You know, on the subject of navigation - is it me or do the kids have horrendous memories when it comes to Lyoko's geography - Odd couldn't even remember where the Ice Sector's way-tower was - heck, even Aelita (who lived on Lyoko for over a year) forgot that there's a tower in that cave behind the waterfalls in the ice-sector, even though we've seen her go there at least once before in S1.

(comes back on topic)

We don't really know how you navigate between towers, except for the basic rules - normal towers are interlinked with other towers in their sector - as we saw with Odd in 'Crash Course' which tower connects to which seems to be variable and random.

Way towers allow travel with other sectors - this doesn't seem random - the sector you have in mind is the one you arrive at.

How this all works (or why Franz programmed in these rules) is entirely up for debate

[zex marquise offline]

I have a question. How can William remember what happened after a RTTP in dreams? In one episode, he ran up to Yumi and Ulrich at the pool and started screaming about XANA. He ended up helping and fought one of those henchmen and then Jeremie did a RTTP. Afterwards, William told Yumi that he had the strangest dream about it. Isn't he supposed to forget everything? Does the supercompy actually erase memories (or "reset" them) or does it simply isolate memories like with hypnosis?

[TB3]

I have a question. How can William remember what happened after a RTTP in dreams? In one episode, he ran up to Yumi and Ulrich at the pool and started screaming about XANA. He ended up helping and fought one of those henchmen and then Jeremie did a RTTP. Afterwards, William told Yumi that he had the strangest dream about it. Isn't he supposed to forget everything? Does the supercompy actually erase memories (or "reset" them) or does it simply isolate memories like with hypnosis?

Remember, the supercomputer doesn't 'erase' or 'supress' memories - the eviodence shows that the timeline simply changes - the events of the episode never happened, and thus people outside of the Lyoko gang don't have any memories of it.

So, like you, I got very confused when William remembered stuff from previous episodes.

I discussed this with Sophie Decroisstte, the script writer - she implied anyone in Kadic had the potential to remember stuff, but that William was a bit more sensitive (she implied XANA might be involved in his remembering).

As I interpret this (and Cassius is free to argue it ), the erased timeline leaves behind a sort of...Quantum Ghost, an afterimage imprinted on the new timeline - it is this that both kills people who died in the original timeline (the brain-death in one timeline kills the mind in the second), and also this Quantum Ghost gives the capacity for people to remember (stray aspects from the Quantum ghost of their mind imprinting in the actual subconcious) - we've had hints and small amounts of this before as well - most often at the end of an episode where a character (often Sissi), will act in a slightly different manner to how they did first time round.

[Malkmusian offline]

I call the remembering through dreams theorem, Rhys, the William Dunbar Effect, as in the character who originally discovered the effect.

[jaimehlers offline]

Well, the idea of the supercomputer communicating with itself in the past is not a bad idea and avoids a lot of the "time paradox" issues that plague the idea of time travel. It also helps that they seldom jump more than a day or two in the past (in fact, I suspect they never go much further back than that; probably a built-in safeguard on the supercalculator). But if RTTPs were a true trip back into the past, they'd have to explain what happened to the original versions of themselves, among other such messy problems.

You know, I wonder if RTTPs are the supercalculator's equivalent to a system backup. I mean, in "A Great Day", the supercalculator kept returning them to that morning, and most computers set a system restore point up in the morning of each day. It's just that most computers don't possess the ability to wipe out an existing universe and create a new one. *chuckles* That's how it appears to me, anyway; parallel universes rather than rewinding time.

Though, that leads me to wonder, what if the supercalculator keeps those old system restore points, just in case? I suspect that the idea's never really occurred to Jeremie and the rest of the gang, most likely because they really do view them as jumps back in time rather than jumps across to a parallel universe, but it's a definite possibility as long as the system restore points still exist in the supercalculator's memory.

That makes me wonder, though...how do these restore points work? On a regular computer, it's just a saved state taken at a certain point in time. But if the supercalculator is actually communicating with itself in the past, then all it'd need is a date (and, of course, it would have to be operational at that point in time). And if all it needs is a specific date and time, then a RTTP could easily be to any point when the supercalculator was turned on, even back when Franz Hopper was still fine-tuning the thing.

But anyway, that definitely explains why they can't afford to initiate a RTTP while a tower is activated by XANA or while Aelita is possessed. Because the supercalculator would communicate that info to itself in the past...and thus, XANA would maintain control of the tower (or Aelita) even in the past, which would really screw things up. Hmm...it just occurred to me that if XANA maintains control over something when a RTTP is initiated, then it might actually strengthen his control over whatever-it-is. It would certainly help to explain why XANA has such a firm hold on William, anyway.

[Tangent128 offline]

We don't really know how you navigate between towers, except for the basic rules - normal towers are interlinked with other towers in their sector - as we saw with Odd in 'Crash Course' which tower connects to which seems to be variable and random.

Way towers allow travel with other sectors - this doesn't seem random - the sector you have in mind is the one you arrive at.

How this all works (or why Franz programmed in these rules) is entirely up for debate

Yeah, they don't really explain this business too well. I personally think that each Tower leads to one other Tower all the time, and that each sector has three Way Towers. I know that Ice Sector has at least two Way Towers, as the surroundings of the Ice Sector Way Tower in "The Secret" and "Sabotage" were very different.

[Kamekai offline]

Well, the idea of the supercomputer communicating with itself in the past is not a bad idea and avoids a lot of the "time paradox" issues that plague the idea of time travel. It also helps that they seldom jump more than a day or two in the past (in fact, I suspect they never go much further back than that; probably a built-in safeguard on the supercalculator). But if RTTPs were a true trip back into the past, they'd have to explain what happened to the original versions of themselves, among other such messy problems.

You know, I wonder if RTTPs are the supercalculator's equivalent to a system backup. I mean, in "A Great Day", the supercalculator kept returning them to that morning, and most computers set a system restore point up in the morning of each day. It's just that most computers don't possess the ability to wipe out an existing universe and create a new one. *chuckles* That's how it appears to me, anyway; parallel universes rather than rewinding time.

Though, that leads me to wonder, what if the supercalculator keeps those old system restore points, just in case? I suspect that the idea's never really occurred to Jeremie and the rest of the gang, most likely because they really do view them as jumps back in time rather than jumps across to a parallel universe, but it's a definite possibility as long as the system restore points still exist in the supercalculator's memory.

That makes me wonder, though...how do these restore points work? On a regular computer, it's just a saved state taken at a certain point in time. But if the supercalculator is actually communicating with itself in the past, then all it'd need is a date (and, of course, it would have to be operational at that point in time). And if all it needs is a specific date and time, then a RTTP could easily be to any point when the supercalculator was turned on, even back when Franz Hopper was still fine-tuning the thing.

But anyway, that definitely explains why they can't afford to initiate a RTTP while a tower is activated by XANA or while Aelita is possessed. Because the supercalculator would communicate that info to itself in the past...and thus, XANA would maintain control of the tower (or Aelita) even in the past, which would really screw things up. Hmm...it just occurred to me that if XANA maintains control over something when a RTTP is initiated, then it might actually strengthen his control over whatever-it-is. It would certainly help to explain why XANA has such a firm hold on William, anyway.

well, we're not dealing with a normal computer. And to me, it seems like Xana is losing his grip.

[Overcaffeinated Sloth offline]

jaimehlers, I'd like to note that any standard computer's way of telling time is by a specific number code, and I believe the first one is December 31st, 1969 at 11:59 PM. So if a computer can hve a small file that records activity (Like, before something "logs in" to another world (A XANA attack) ) It runs it through a program, andtime is reset.

And as for the saving part: Most basic programs, like GIMP, can be set to save a file's progress every ten minutes, and also before a major change is done (Agfain, with XANA attacks). So if this were somehow set up to a XANA attack-finding program (Superscan) then I'd say your theory is very realistic!

[TB3]

Well, the idea of the supercomputer communicating with itself in the past is not a bad idea and avoids a lot of the "time paradox" issues that plague the idea of time travel. It also helps that they seldom jump more than a day or two in the past (in fact, I suspect they never go much further back than that; probably a built-in safeguard on the supercalculator). But if RTTPs were a true trip back into the past, they'd have to explain what happened to the original versions of themselves, among other such messy problems.

You don't understand - the kids are NOT moving back in time physically - their minds in the past are being updated with data from their minds in the future - only data is moved, not physical objects.

This is also how the supercomputer becomes more powerful with enough RTTPs - during the RTTP the two versions of the computer are in communication - interlinked enough to effectively become a single computer with double the original processing power, and thus for a short period of time they can work on upgrading themselves by collaboration.

Also the 'paralell universe' theory falls flat on it's face because that means the kids are abandoning a universe to XANA in order to escape to another - since that's in complete defiance of the show's objective (save the world) then we can disregard that theory.

And please remember, the theory I described is the one accepted by Moonscoop - I talked it over with the director and he agreed/liked it - heck he tried to get Moonscoop's Producers to officially canonise our ideas and shared our theories with the scriptwriter.

[Cassius335 offline]

As I interpret this (and Cassius is free to argue it ), the erased timeline leaves behind a sort of...Quantum Ghost, an afterimage imprinted on the new timeline - it is this that both kills people who died in the original timeline (the brain-death in one timeline kills the mind in the second), and also this Quantum Ghost gives the capacity for people to remember (stray aspects from the Quantum ghost of their mind imprinting in the actual subconcious)

Yeah, never liked the "Quantum did it" approach to people dying after a RTTP. Too close to "A wizard did it".

[TB3]

As I interpret this (and Cassius is free to argue it ), the erased timeline leaves behind a sort of...Quantum Ghost, an afterimage imprinted on the new timeline - it is this that both kills people who died in the original timeline (the brain-death in one timeline kills the mind in the second), and also this Quantum Ghost gives the capacity for people to remember (stray aspects from the Quantum ghost of their mind imprinting in the actual subconcious)

Yeah, never liked the "Quantum did it" approach to people dying after a RTTP. Too close to "A wizard did it".

And yet 'Nobody in Particular' does show Quantum phenomena can have an effect on people in the world of CL - in truth, a quantum after-image killing people or causing them to have faint recollections isn't that different from Ulrich's quantum self possessing people is it

[jaimehlers offline]

Actually, TB3, I did understand that concept quite well. It's actually quite elegant, since it skips around most of the messy problems with the traditional methods of time travel (which generally involve transporting someone or something back in time). RTTPs obviously don't do that, at least not in the "poof, kids appear back in the past" sense, because if they did, then there'd be two copies of them running around and you'd have to deal with time paradoxes and all that fun stuff. It kind of reminds me a little bit of a concept I read about in a book series, where someone in the present would "dream" about the future and thus be able to take actions in their present to change that future. I'm not talking about something like William's "I dreamed I was helping you guys fight" thing, either; this dream was completely real, like they were actually living in that time during the dream. Basically, it's kind of like the past and future selves of that person would join while the "past" one was sleeping, so that they could find out about the future without creating time paradoxes and thus change the present.

Also, I don't think I explained what I meant by parallel universes very well. Okay, when a RTTP happens, things don't happen the same way again, right? It's a bit like in "Groundhog Day"; in fact, I believe that "A Great Day" was actually a play on the movie "Groundhog Day". The point is that it's a different timeline, because events happen differently than they would have originally (mostly based on the kids' knowledge of the "future", but still). Well, different timelines are parallel universes, at least in my view. They're just a different way of describing the same thing; different universes (since events don't quite follow the same course as before) running in parallel (since they closely mirror each other and follow the same "track").

I also wasn't trying to suggest that the kids were abandoning universe after universe to XANA. What happens to the existing universe when the white light starts to spread? There's three basic possibilities; time continues on in that universe, time stops in that universe (but it continues to exist), and the universe itself is destroyed. The first can be ruled out (at least for Code Lyoko purposes) since that would put a very gloomy spin on things. So that means it's either the second or the third. Which it is doesn't matter that much because they amount to the same thing as far as the kids are concerned, though.

The reason I brought up computer system restores is because a RTTP seems to function on the same general principle - if something bad happens, restore to a previous "safe" state and go from there. Of course, RTTPs are a lot more powerful than a computer's system restore function! But the point is that the basic principle is the same. And when a computer restores itself from a saved state, it isn't traveling back in time either, it just overwrites its existing state with the saved one.

That made me think of an interesting concept, but I need more time to work it out in my head, so I'll post it later.

[Cassius335 offline]

And yet 'Nobody in Particular' does show Quantum phenomena can have an effect on people in the world of CL - in truth, a quantum after-image killing people or causing them to have faint recollections isn't that different from Ulrich's quantum self possessing people is it

YES! It's one hell of a leap. I'll buy that quantum phenomea can affect people, but Ulirich's Quantum Ghost had Ulrich's mind in control, and therefore less to worry about when it came to finding the posessee. And Kiwi and Jim don't seem to have dropped dead from being posssesed.

At best, William has opened up the possibility that people can possibly maybe have faint recollections of dying. Which would be hella freaky, but that's it. There's no way to get from there to "Everyone automatically dies after a RTTP if they died in the previous one." There's a MASSIVE lack of quantum senseitivity to account for first.

[JesusFreak offline]

Um, excuse me all you smart peopleses? Sorry, but I have a question; What happens if a person with Multiple Personalities is virtualized?

[Kamekai offline]

then he is virtualized as a schizophrenic deformed creature.

[Tangent128 offline]

Hmm... the actual virtualization shouldn't be an issue; they'd act however they do in the real world, alternating between personalities.
However, the GenAvatar.exe program may be thrown for a loop- different avatars would be subconciously favored by different personalities. I'd guess whichever personality is dominant at the time of first scanning would determine the Avatar generated. If no personality is dominant at the time... then they are virtualized as a schizophrenic deformed creature, yes.
Any Lyokologists want to comment?

*Starts wondering what happens with virtualized split-brain patients...*

[Kamekai offline]

a very interesting topic, this is. hehe couldn't resist it

what about... a person on drugs and Alcohol?

[Cassius335 offline]

Probably a VERY good chance of crashing the Avatar.