School and Religion

[Kamekai offline]

Ya' know, the whole "Church separate from State" thing really bugs me.

I'm sure we've all noticed that instead of the U.S. Government enforcing free religion at school, it seems more and more like they're barring it.
I'm sure most of us have heard at least one case of a school putting up a cross, etc. up in the halls, only to get sued by an Athiest. I mean, come on, how can you religiously insult an Athiest? Athiesm as a religion defeats the purpose, does it not? And if it's a Buddist, etc. or something, just tell 'em to put up a statue of Buddha, etc. while they're at it!

So instead of free religion at School, It feels like Anti-Religion to me!
I know we've all heard that they're trying take the "Under God" thing out of the pledge. Hey, if you don't believe in God, don't say the pledge, they can't force you!


...whew. Glad that's out of my system.

[MY85 offline]

Atheist people can be just as equally annoying as people that believe in a religion. No joke about that.

[zex marquise offline]

I dislike all forms of organized religion. They can offer plenty of hope, and good moral values and ideologies, but in the end most are nothing more than another system of control, invented by a few to control the many. They don't offer a full, true understanding of the nature of God, only hint at it. I believe in God and I believe in Jesus Christ, but I don't affiliate myself with any denomination of "Christianity". I also think that there are parts of Buddhism that are more informed about the true nature of God than the ambiguities (and outright inconsistencies) of the Bible.
But to stop ranting and get back to the topic at hand, I believe that it is actually good wisdom on the Man's part to separate religion from school. Even if they had some sort of symbol for each religion set up throughout the school so that each religion was represented equally, in the end it would still lead to tensions between groups of different beliefs. Has anyone tried to discuss religion with a member of a different faith? Sure, every now and then you can find someone who is open-minded and willing to discuss the reasons for their beliefs in an intelligent conversation, but most of the time people will just get PO'd and defensive if you start to talk about different religious beliefs. It's called "indoctrination" and is what happens when something is drilled into your brain from an early age. People who are otherwise very analytical and skeptical of taking things at face value will drop all scientific reasoning when confronted with beliefs that they have been taught to believe since childhood. It's much
like Hitler's brainwashing of the people who became Nazis, or how white children were brought up under the idea that black people were inferior during the early days of America. Why do they know that their belief is correct? Because... they... uh... just know. I started ranting again, didn't I? D****t. I can't stop myself. Oh well, it's 3AM, I'm allowed to spout off at this hour. Where was I? Fundamentalism is a symbolic example of the problems with organized religion. So in order to officially belong to Christianity, you have to believe in God and that Jesus was the son of God. Okay, I'll agree with that. But you also have to believe that man was made out of dirt, the Earth was made in seven days (vs. several million years according to proven science), and that the entire human race was spawned from two people. If that's true, then we must all be some really genetically fracked up descendants of incest. Why would God need to make Adam go to sleep and then take out his rib to make woman, when he could just poof her into existence? Who was Cain's wife? I mean, Able was killed, so it was just Adam, Cain, and Eve, sooo that means... And this is the part where the paster gets really angry and accuses you of heresy. I guess I'm not "Christian" material. (Factoid: in the apocryphal texts that the church removed from the bible, Cain's wife was named Lilith.) I think that God would want us all to use our brains that he put so much thought into creating for us and use them to determine what is deserving of our "faith" and what is total BS fed to us by the religious establishment. Anyways, I have no idea what this has to do with anything, but there you have it. Another wonderful, utterly pointless rant by your resident eccentric (and ''derangedly Franz-like") anarchist.

And that's stupid that people want to remove "under God" from the Pledge. Is America the only country not allowed to have an official religion? Seriously, what the heck? If you don't like it then don't say it. Silly goose.

This has been another midnight rant wi... ah, forget it. You get the point.

[Lyoko Wario offline]

First off, I don't mind the "Under God" part of the pledge even though I'm not religious. The way I see it, that line has been with us throughout the history of our country, and it really holds no religious meaning as the pledge simply expresses hope and loyalty for America. The people who want to alter something as emblematic to this nation just because they don't believe in a god, per se, are just whiny nitpickers in my opinion.

However, I really dislike and oppose organized religion. For every passage in the Bible (and I mention the Bible because it's the only religious text I'm familiar with) that preaches a genuinely good value, there's a hundred others that promote ignorance and bigotry, and there are far too many people out there who can't tell the difference between right and wrong and thus use the Bible as an excuse to harass and oppress people. I'm not saying that all religious people out there are like that, and I know that because a good deal of my friends are devout Christians, but I've seen enough documentaries and news stories dealing with the subject to know that religon can pose a genuine threat to both the peace and scientific and social progress.

[codeTONY offline]

Don't get me started.

Just don't do it.

[Kamekai offline]

Atheist people can be just as equally annoying as people that believe in a religion. No joke about that.

So true. Soooo True. But that's what I'm talking about.

I dislike all forms of organized religion. They can offer plenty of hope, and good moral values and ideologies, but in the end most are nothing more than another system of control, invented by a few to control the many. They don't offer a full, true understanding of the nature of God, only hint at it. I believe in God and I believe in Jesus Christ, but I don't affiliate myself with any denomination of "Christianity". I also think that there are parts of Buddhism that are more informed about the true nature of God than the ambiguities (and outright inconsistencies) of the Bible.
But to stop ranting and get back to the topic at hand, I believe that it is actually good wisdom on the Man's part to separate religion from school. Even if they had some sort of symbol for each religion set up throughout the school so that each religion was represented equally, in the end it would still lead to tensions between groups of different beliefs. Has anyone tried to discuss religion with a member of a different faith? Sure, every now and then you can find someone who is open-minded and willing to discuss the reasons for their beliefs in an intelligent conversation, but most of the time people will just get PO'd and defensive if you start to talk about different religious beliefs. It's called "indoctrination" and is what happens when something is drilled into your brain from an early age. People who are otherwise very analytical and skeptical of taking things at face value will drop all scientific reasoning when confronted with beliefs that they have been taught to believe since childhood. It's much
like Hitler's brainwashing of the people who became Nazis, or how white children were brought up under the idea that black people were inferior during the early days of America. Why do they know that their belief is correct? Because... they... uh... just know. I started ranting again, didn't I? D****t. I can't stop myself. Oh well, it's 3AM, I'm allowed to spout off at this hour. Where was I? Fundamentalism is a symbolic example of the problems with organized religion. So in order to officially belong to Christianity, you have to believe in God and that Jesus was the son of God. Okay, I'll agree with that. But you also have to believe that man was made out of dirt, the Earth was made in seven days (vs. several million years according to proven science), and that the entire human race was spawned from two people. If that's true, then we must all be some really genetically fracked up descendants of incest. Why would God need to make Adam go to sleep and then take out his rib to make woman, when he could just poof her into existence? Who was Cain's wife? I mean, Able was killed, so it was just Adam, Cain, and Eve, sooo that means... And this is the part where the paster gets really angry and accuses you of heresy. I guess I'm not "Christian" material. (Factoid: in the apocryphal texts that the church removed from the bible, Cain's wife was named Lilith.) I think that God would want us all to use our brains that he put so much thought into creating for us and use them to determine what is deserving of our "faith" and what is total BS fed to us by the religious establishment. Anyways, I have no idea what this has to do with anything, but there you have it. Another wonderful, utterly pointless rant by your resident eccentric (and ''derangedly Franz-like") anarchist.

And that's stupid that people want to remove "under God" from the Pledge. Is America the only country not allowed to have an official religion? Seriously, what the heck? If you don't like it then don't say it. Silly goose.

This has been another midnight rant wi... ah, forget it. You get the point.

Yeah, I believe in God and the like, but that whole "Adam and Eve" thing?

Evolution is the only Solution. (heh, I rhymed!)

[Reesane offline]

*sigh*

Putting up any relgios symbole in a puplic location like a school is considered an act of religios favorism. That violates seperation of Church and State. Would you be insulted if someone put up Satanism symboles in a school building?

Atheist people can be just as equally annoying as people that believe in a religion. No joke about that.

Remeber:

Athism is not a religion
Athism is not a belief system
Athism is the lack of belifes in the existence of god(s). Thus, you can be higly religios and athistic at the same time.

[Kamekai offline]

Yeah, I don't want to see anything poppin up everywhere either. But what I mean is, hey, If the staff happens to want a cross, w/e, they shouldn't be sued for it!

[Reesane offline]

Yeah, I don't want to see anything poppin up everywhere either. But what I mean is, hey, If the staff happens to want a cross, w/e, they shouldn't be sued for it!

It depends on where the cross was displayed. If it was displayed in a prominet posistion, like in a halway or on a teachers desk, that's bad. Howerver, if it's in the teacher's lounger or somthing like that, then that's fine.

[Malkmusian offline]

Well, seeing that teachers are flaming Jesus freaks until they start becoming Darwinists (I combine both the Darwin and the Bible theories; they actually coincide with one another), it's anti-religion and we're being brainwashed to believe that God is a myth. No, he ain't. Look what some people do. He is helping them. He is one loving man.l

[Kamekai offline]

just to confuse people... are we absolutely sure he's a man?

[Reesane offline]

Well, seeing that teachers are flaming Jesus freaks until they start becoming Darwinists (I combine both the Darwin and the Bible theories; they actually coincide with one another), it's anti-religion and we're being brainwashed to believe that God is a myth. No, he ain't. Look what some people do. He is helping them. He is one loving man.l

.....

You do realise how ofensive that statment is, right?

Oh, and please do some reserch on evolution. It's not a religion.

[Kamekai offline]

yes, I know. it isn't. I meant that I believe in the theory of evolution. Another thing. If what we say is controversial, you have two options.

1.) Deal with it.

2.) Notify us that we have said something controversial, and we will remove it... and replace it with something equally or more controversial.

[DeadViolet offline]

This is why I hate Public Schools.

[Tekirai offline]

OH GOODY A DEBATE A DEBATE

Does America not have integrated schools or something? o_o Where I live it's mostly either Catholics or Protestants and the rest are a mixture of Buddhists, Muslims and athiests/agnostics, so if you don't count the ongoing rivalry between C and P nothing really happens in schools. Particulary integrated ones- nothing religious is really mentioned unless in RE.

[codeTONY offline]

Public schools can not legally present favoritism towards a particular religion (usually christianity) due to the separation of church and state that was written in the Declaration of Independence. Private or religious schools can do whatever the hell they want.

[Kamekai offline]

I can tell this is going to get really controversial. hope it doesn't get too violent. >.>

[zex marquise offline]

lol super-controversial, just the sort of unintelligible yelling that always comes from talking about religion. This is what I was talking about. Let's all please be calm and have an intelligent conversation, or this topic will be locked.

yes, I know. it isn't. I meant that I believe in the theory of evolution. Another thing. If what we say is controversial, you have two options.

1.) Deal with it.

2.) Notify us that we have said something controversial, and we will remove it... and replace it with something equally or more controversial.

Actually, I think they were talking to Malmusian. On that subject, "Jesus Freaks," while may very occasionally be appropriate for the Ned Flanderses of the world (I've met a few), it is an offensive term and you should refrain from using it. There's nothing wrong with loving Jesus a lot. It's the people who constantly try to convert you with no respect to your own beliefs who are the problem.

Malkmusian, you said that Darwinism and the Bible theories coincide? I am very curious as to how, since the contradiction between Darwinism and Creationism (from Fundamentalism) is at the center of the Science-Religion feud. Would you mind explaining (carefully, to avoid more misunderstanding) how it is possible for them to coincide?

Now, as for the separation between school and religion, it is not anti-religion. There is no banner on the wall or loudspeaker saying that you can't talk about religion at school or trying to make you believe that God doesn't exist. That would be unconstitutional. Instead, schools simply do not talk about religion in their curriculum (with the exception of English literature class, which may often deal with Christian themes) to create a scientific learning environment unhindered by the contradictions and biases inherent to religion. If the school started teaching the various religions, or even just one, along with it's curriculum, then science classes would go down the drain, and people of different beliefs would cause a ruckus. No one is forcing you to believe evolution over creation, for example. The school is simply offering an unbiased education of what has been proven by science, which you can choose to accept or choose to not accept. However, when it comes to certain contradictions between the Bible and science, you are eventually going to have to use that wonderful gift of reasoning that God gave you and realize that, for all it's moral teachings, the Bible was written by people, not God, during a time of extreme scientific ignorance. Even the book of Mathew wasn't written until 60 years after Jesus had died. Doh. That means there will be exaggerations and flaws in the memory of the guy who wrote it. For example, it only takes a few well worded questions to completely unravel the feasibility of the Creation theory (which I already went through above), as well as the Noah's Ark theory. It is quite possible that at one time there was indeed a great flood that covered most of the earth, considering how many separate cultures scattered throughout the world recorded it in their histories. However, one must stop and think about the idea that all the species of the earth fit into a boat even of the size described in the Bible (4 football fields and approximately 100 ft. high) and that each species could propagate from only one male and one female (same problem as Creation). What about the species that were on other continents? How did they get over to the Ark before the entire earth was flooded? Doh again. My point is, It's fine to believe in God and Jesus or Allah (Factoid: God and Allah are the same, just different names) or whomever/whatever you worship, but you also have to face the fact that the Bible and other religious scriptures were written back in the day by regular guys with little understanding of the world. Some parts are going to be flat out wrong, and you are going to have to be wise and decide for yourself what parts you believe, and what parts you don't. If there is one thing we have learned as a species, it's to question everything. Never stop asking why. God won't get mad at you for asking why. After all, He's the one who gave you that ability. Message stop.

[Kamekai offline]

I agree with zex, I've always seen most of it like that.

[Lyoko SA80 offline]

Argh .I hate the fact people take orther people's religion so .It a belief everyone has a right to believe in someone .Butto be hosret it scary me to think the all the sucide bombers and that are a particluar religion.But I know to fact that the peopleorther wounldn't dare of doing what people are doing her in the uk (I don't what going onin the US).It always a religion belief that make people go to war .I hate it.

[oddson offline]

Well in briton we have R.E (religous education) but we get the choice. If i can get my pearents to hand in a letter i can not do it. Plus i get 4 free periods a week.

[. offline]

how'd that Robot Chicken quote go?

Moses: BEHOLD! I have the ten commandments from God!
Guy: Is there anything in there about not pushing your religion on others?
Moses: No!
Guy: *sighs and looks down* Didn't think so...

That being said, while I'm all against the putting up of symbols of religions on government land. I see no problem whatsoever in HOLIDAY symbols being put up. Christmas Trees and the like.

Or whatever, lets just scrap it and have Festivus or the rest of us.

[Lola offline]

Now ya see. I don't understand religion that much. I was raised in a Catholic household but we don't go to church much. But three of my four friends are really and I mean REALLY religious. Not that it's all they talk about. They just know a lot about it. Like my friend, David whenever he wasn't teaching me how to fight he was teaching me about god.

My friend nick says

Separation of Church and State was intended simply to not force religion on the students. Though they were required to teach about other religions and let students chose for themselves what they believe. Be it Christianity, Protestant, Buddhism, Darwainism, the list goes on. The separation was intended to preserve the first ammendments rights of free speech, press and religion. Andrew Jackson, the person who came up with the separation, was actually Protestant.
What's happened today is that concept has been warped. Over zelous Atheists who oppose religion have warped and twisted the separation so now the scale has turned. Truth is, Atheism has become a religion and they are forcing it on us. We just don't realize it, and even most of them don't realize what they're doing.
Just a little comment of my own, there are no inconsistancies in the Bible. What you will find are things that don't make sense that get explained later on but seem like something different. The thing about religions is that there will always be quiet people, there will always be people who express their faith, there will always be a happy medium, there will always be extremists, and it takes a lot of thought and meditation to make sense of the doctrines in any religion. Then there are some people that simply can't make sense of it. That's usually where an Atheist is born too. Now, because Atheism is also a religion, the same types of people exist there too. Quiet, loud, medium, extreme.
Now you might bring up bad preists or teachers of the religion, whatever the term may be. I don't know much about that, but the way I think it would happen is it's a very religious person that also happens to be one of those people that simply doesn't understand the Bible (just as an example we use Bible). They may be dedicated enough to qualify to teach in the eyes of the clergy but that doesn't mean they understand it. That's when things get watered down or warped or inconsistancies are created in religions. That's just the way I see it though.

Sorry I had to ask him to type that. I told you everything I knew.

[Ghost Guest offline]

Doesn't a religion require the existence of a superior being to be considered as such? I think that's the reason Buddhism can be regarded as a philosophy rather than a religion, because it doesn't have a god within its system of beliefs (that I'm aware of). In that sense, one could argue that atheism is not a religion. Also, a religion has a consistent set of beliefs and practices that their followers must stick to. And even though there are certainly atheist groups, the ones that I've read about don't have any sort of rules or specific beliefs or whatever.

I hated religion class in school so the separation of church and state is fine by me. But everyone should be allowed to express their beliefs, and I can see no harm in putting up a cross in a school for example. Another thing would be to impose them though, and that is what I'm against.

[Exploder offline]

I've come back just to post this one comment.
Honestly, I don't know how to tell people who get it wrong that they are incompetent idiots.
When the pilgrims came to this land we now call America, they came for several reasons. One was the fact that conditions in Europe were worsening by the day, due to factors such as the Little Ice Age, overcrowding, corrupt governmental systems, and the like. But the main reason was so that they could practice their religion freely as they please. Most of the pilgrims were either Catholic or a form of Protestantism.
When the founding fathers wrote the Constitution, they wrote it so that all men could be equal. This meant freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, and all the other things that go with these rights. Now, most of the population of our country have come to ignore that fact. Freedom of religion does NOT mean that one can force his religion upon others.
Now, it seems like the religion topic has become a case of anti-racism. People attack Christianity for no reason whatsoever, and somehow think that their religion is better, just because they have 10,000 gods or they worship the little old lady who lives in the cardboard box in your mom's basement. Perhaps the best example of something that does a lot to make me mad is the Wal-Mart Scenario. In this case, the employees were forced to take down the "Merry Christmas" sign because it was "demeaning to other religions and blah blah blah". Guess what? That action was demeaning to the majority of the population, who are some form of Christianity. By doing that, they have just earned themselves a spot on the "Top Ten Most Retarded Corporate Crackheads of all Time" list.

As far as I'm concerned, Atheism doesn't exist. It's not a religion. Religion is the exact opposite of Atheism.

So all of you who think you know everything, why don't you actually look stuff up before you open your mouth.

And as far as the displaying of religious symbols... They can do whatever the hell they want! So shut up already. No one's shoving Jesus down your throat.

Enough of that. Back to my previously scheduled not being here-ness.