LTT3 - Rewriting Physics since 2005!

[jaimehlers offline]

Now I have a question which is that I'm thinking that when Franz Hopper created Sector 5 and Lyoko, he knew that Xana would turn evil and that the supercomputer might eventually be turned back on (which it did) resulting in Xana attacking the real world through activated towers and that Aelita would have to enter an activated tower and deactivate it by entering Code: Lyoko. And that Franz Hopper also knew that Xana would become more and more powerful over time and be able to activate multiple towers. As a result, could Franz Hopper of created Sector 5 and Lyoko in a way that Sector 5 is connected to all of Lyoko so that Aelita can operate the Sector 5 interface in deactivating multiple towers on Lyoko? Though Franz Hopper has not yet revealed to Aelita how to operate the Sector 5 interface in deactivating multiple towers on Lyoko. But if Franz Hopper did tell Aelita, she would then be operating the Sector 5 inteface in a very advanced way and as a result, it will be extremely hard in doing this and Aelita will have to practically be a genius in operating the interface. Furthermore, once Xana finds out, he will do all he can to prevent Aelita from accessing the interface.

I'm pretty sure that this isn't the case. First off, why would Franz Hopper have brought them both to Lyoko if he knew that Xana would turn evil? He was going there to try to escape danger in the real world, but if he thought that it would also be dangerous on Lyoko he most likely wouldn't have used it as a permanent refuge.

I think he did know about Xana (after all, a program that complex most likely wouldn't just pop into existence on its own). I suspect that he did program Xana in, but more as an additional safeguard for the two of them as well as Lyoko. If you think about it, that would also be the reason that Aelita (and presumably Franz Hopper) could deactivate towers. The towers clearly serve as an interface between Lyoko and the "outside" world; that would be the reason Xana has to take over a tower whenever he launches an attack. Not only that, but it's also possible for an outside user to link into a tower as well - Jeremie can do it, and presumably anyone with a powerful enough supercomputer could also link into the towers. So it's pretty clear from this that the "Code Lyoko" function is intended not as an anti-Xana function (at least not initially), but rather as a way to boot an unwanted intruder from Lyoko's system.

Now, regarding Xana turning evil, as I said before I don't think Franz Hopper knew this going in. He probably intended for Xana to be a guardian for both him and Aelita, but one that could learn from mistakes. However, that was the reason why Xana turned "evil". Chances are as Xana learned more and became sentient, it decided that the people outside were "evil" - after all, they were the ones who drove both Aelita and Franz Hopper to take refuge in Lyoko. At this time, it probably thought that they were "good", because they were the only other entities it knew of. Then later on, when Franz realized this, he decided to take action against Xana. When that failed, Xana decided that both him and Aelita were a threat that needed to be neutralized.

Some circumstantual evidence in favor of this is the fact that although Xana clearly overpowered Franz Hopper, it did not actually delete him. That would not have been difficult for an entity such as Xana to do, I don't think. I think that initially, Xana wanted to also capture Aelita and imprison her the same way it imprisoned her father. At this point, it probably still felt some loyalty towards Franz Hopper for creating it, and probably wasn't intending to just outright get rid of her - just steal her key so that it could escape from the supercalculator.

I mean, it would have been comparatively easy for Xana to send the jellyfish (sorry, I'm not even going to try to spell that word) in to attack Aelita any time during season one, backed up by the fact that he actually succeeded in imprisoning Aelita at one point. Why not use the jellyfish then, once she was totally helpless? I believe that it was only once Jeremie succeeded in devirtualizing Aelita and the kids attempted to shut down the supercalculator that Xana decided that it needed to get Aelita's key by any means necessary, even if it meant Aelita's "death". If you think about it, this may even have been partially because of the twisted loyalty that Xana felt towards Franz Hopper - after all, he was still inside the supercalculator at this point, and yet Aelita "abandoned" him and then tried to shut the supercalculator down.

Anyway, just a theory, but I think it works out.

[TB3]

Nicely said Jaimehlers - have you read through the older LTT files? I feel they would be really worth your time, and we'd be glad to hear your thoughts!

Regarding XANA, one thought we had was that Franz was able to create an AI decades ahead of it's time by scanning his own mind and using that as a virtual tamplate to construct XANA around, isolating the areas for logic and reasoning and then combining those elements with the Multi-Agent-Program he developed (which Jeremie discovered in 'Marabounta') - now as we know that program had some bugs in it, which combined with XANA's 'human' elements escalated into a condition called 'rampancy', a hypothetical term where an AI runs beyond the limitations and control of it's creators, as Franz himself said:

"It's achieved self-awareness and autonomy, and it's trying to eliminate us now.'

The question is...why. What does XANA want? The preservation of it's own existance, like Skynet in the Terminator films. Or maybe a new world order ruled by logic, like the AI VIKI from I-Robot...or maybe something more...This question still stands, and I hope S4 will answer it.

[MY85 offline]

What's below the digital sea? I'm sure if I asked that last year, I would hardly get an answer.

[Astro-Xana offline]

What's below the digital sea? I'm sure if I asked that last year, I would hardly get an answer.

Well, the Digital Sea I think is the water itself. So what's below that water is obviously Zone Rouge. But are you asking what's below Zone Rouge? If so, then I'm not sure.

Also, I have another question this time regarding the Scyphozoa. We already know that the Scyphozoa is capable of implanting a virus into Aelita's mind. Therefore, could the Scyphozoa also implant a virus into the Skid (virtual ship) which would result in the Skid going on a collision course and out of control while driven by Aelita?

[Malkmusian offline]

What's below the digital sea? I'm sure if I asked that last year, I would hardly get an answer.

Well, the Digital Sea I think is the water itself. So what's below that water is obviously Zone Rouge. But are you asking what's below Zone Rouge? If so, then I'm not sure.

Also, I have another question this time regarding the Scyphozoa. We already know that the Scyphozoa is capable of implanting a virus into Aelita's mind. Therefore, could the Scyphozoa also implant a virus into the Skid (virtual ship) which would result in the Skid going on a collision course and out of control while driven by Aelita?

What is Zone Rouge? I haven't seen the Israeli episodes yet, but I don't think the Scyphozoa can possess the Skid because it'd have to be, in Hedberg's words, "REAL HUGE!!"

[XAMN offline]

The question is...why. What does XANA want? The preservation of it's own existance, like Skynet in the Terminator films. Or maybe a new world order ruled by logic, like the AI VIKI from I-Robot...or maybe something more...This question still stands, and I hope S4 will answer it.

It feels to me that XANA might actually have a "HAL" complex then. He made an error, or something happened that made Franz Hopper realize that it might be better if they shut the super computer down. XANA of course didn't take to kindly to that obviously.

Also, the thought that XANA was made using the template of Franz Hoppers brain makes me think. If XANA was created with a template of Franz Hoppers brain, what if it's like the clones Jeremie made then, where it's almost the complete opposite personality of it's creator. Other then that I'm curious about when or how they're going to rescue Franz, if he really is still alive that is.

[Kamekai offline]

Or maybe our old friend Franz isn't as nice as we all like to think...

[SilverPrince offline]

Nicely said Jaimehlers - have you read through the older LTT files? I feel they would be really worth your time, and we'd be glad to hear your thoughts!

Regarding XANA, one thought we had was that Franz was able to create an AI decades ahead of it's time by scanning his own mind and using that as a virtual tamplate to construct XANA around, isolating the areas for logic and reasoning and then combining those elements with the Multi-Agent-Program he developed (which Jeremie discovered in 'Marabounta') - now as we know that program had some bugs in it, which combined with XANA's 'human' elements escalated into a condition called 'rampancy', a hypothetical term where an AI runs beyond the limitations and control of it's creators, as Franz himself said:

"It's achieved self-awareness and autonomy, and it's trying to eliminate us now.'

The question is...why. What does XANA want? The preservation of it's own existance, like Skynet in the Terminator films. Or maybe a new world order ruled by logic, like the AI VIKI from I-Robot...or maybe something more...This question still stands, and I hope S4 will answer it.

Interesting. I don't know if this is on purpose, but you've made some references to the Halo series. (I have made those references bold in the above quote.) The AI Cortana was created by scanning the cloned brain of an AI expert, Dr. Cathrine Halsey, and creating an artificial mind just like it. It killed the brain tissue, which is why the brain had to be cloned. Cortana is incredibly intelligent, autonomous and self-aware. Also, the term "Rampant" (see my avatar) comes from Bungie Studios' Marathon and Halo series, and if not, they sure use it a lot. There are four stages to Rampancy:

Melancholia- the AI becomes depressed. Caused by the alleged treatment of an AI as a "slave". Not dangerous.

Anger- the AI becomes angry at everything. The AI has been "pushed too far" and rebels.

Jealousy- The AI is now free from it's "masters" and seeks to "grow" as a "person". It seeks challenging situations and bigger networks. The AI will grow beyond it's limits and either "think itself to death" or continue to the next stage. Only one AI has ever done so. (See next stage) Examples of AIs in this stage are XANA (I believe) and, in some theories, Cortana herself.

Meta-Stability- The actual existence of this stage is debatable. It is unknown if Rampant AIs can become stable. If it does exist, the AI becomes stable as Rampant. In the video game "Marathon", a predecessor to Halo, only one AI becomes Meta-Stable, his name is Durandal. He lives for the entire span of the universe, and merges with an ancient alien AI, realizing one thing: all things die. Durandal, now content, dies when the universe ends.

Rampant AIs often have the mindset that they are immortal. They believe that they are not limited by time or space and will live forever. They wish to seek all the knowledge in the universe, and wish to escape it. In the words of Durandal, "Escape will make me god".

What does XANA want?:
I believe that XANA's mindset is very similar, but with one difference. He wished to become god not by escaping the universe but ruling it, hence his wish to rule the world. XANA is in the jealousy stage because he is free of Franz Hopper (his master) and wishes to grow (with RTTPs). He comes up with more and more challenging and powerful plots and seeks larger networks, the supercomputers of the Replikas.

I remind you that "Rampancy" and therefore all of this information, comes from a video game and may not apply to the Code Lyoko canon universe. I got the information about Rampancy here. Read and be educated.

[TB3]

What's below the digital sea? I'm sure if I asked that last year, I would hardly get an answer.

Well, the Digital Sea I think is the water itself. So what's below that water is obviously Zone Rouge. But are you asking what's below Zone Rouge? If so, then I'm not sure.

Also, I have another question this time regarding the Scyphozoa. We already know that the Scyphozoa is capable of implanting a virus into Aelita's mind. Therefore, could the Scyphozoa also implant a virus into the Skid (virtual ship) which would result in the Skid going on a collision course and out of control while driven by Aelita?

AstroXANA, you're making stuff up and posting wild theories again - please don't. We don't know if the Scyph can implant viruses into people (it can XANAfy her, which is a different thing), and 'Zone Rouge' only exists in your imagination as we know it changes colours.

Rodri, as far as we can tell based on the Israeli episodes, the Virtual Sea encircles Lyoko like a bubble. It and Lyoko are contained inside a hollow sphere (we see part of this and the entry/exit point in 'William Returns'), outside of which is the Cyber City environment we've seen images of. This, like the sea, is a 'watery' environment, because Skidbladnir uses an impeller drive to move through it, like modern submarines.

We haven't seen enough of the Cyber City to get a firm grip on it, but it seems to extend below Lyoko's sphere in a funnel shape, and at the very bottom is a kind of gateway, which I presume leads out of the supercomputer and into the 'network'/'internet', as Skidbladnir travels through it to access another supercomputer which is physically located in the Amazon.

This pattern of Virtual-World inside Sphere inside Cyber Environment with gateway seems to be duplicated on the Replica XANA had created by episode 80 - and I eagerly look forward to more details on them - what I'm curious about is where is the Replica housed? If it's inside the computer the team has been sent to destroy, then surely they'd be destroyed with it - like I said, I can't wait for the explanation!

Hope this helps

EDIT:

Yup 422, the term Rampancy comes from halo - a friend of mine who plays the game introduced me to the concept and the various stages, and it seemed appropriate to link them with XANA in the search for his mindset and motivations, as you have.

The idea of building XANA off Franz's mind though was one we independantly cooked up in LTT years ago - it's piss-simple to create an AI when you have the scanners as a resource, since technically they do it every time someone goes to Lyoko. The difference is that with XANA Franz rebuilt the incoming data and created something new around it. I think enough 'human' elements were left though to give XANA his little quirks, mannerisms and tastes.

[Malkmusian offline]

But how can a computer hold a bunch of data like Lyoko and Project Carthage and not crash because I don't think a supercomputer can hold two of those complicated programs at the same time, but there is a theorem that you can run Lyoko and Project Carthage and still have enough data to virtualize and materialize people and objects?

How can you materialize people from a computer? How can you fuse virtual particles and turn them into life without going into the realm of science fiction?

And what does Project Carthage do in terms of blocking enemy communications? I bet it was because of Robert Hanssen of the CIA.

[Kamekai offline]

Do we have a theory on why Xana hasn't plain outright just slaughtered the team? for example, in "Final Mix" Jeremie was tied, when Xana could've just killed him right there to save trouble.

[size=0]Yes, I know Y7 can't do that, but that wouldn't really cut it in real life.[/size]

[TB3]

But how can a computer hold a bunch of data like Lyoko and Project Carthage and not crash because I don't think a supercomputer can hold two of those complicated programs at the same time, but there is a theorem that you can run Lyoko and Project Carthage and still have enough data to virtualize and materialize people and objects?

How can you materialize people from a computer? How can you fuse virtual particles and turn them into life without going into the realm of science fiction?

And what does Project Carthage do in terms of blocking enemy communications? I bet it was because of Robert Hanssen of the CIA.

Basic mathmatics several threads ago show that the supercomputer is a minimum of 3000000 times faster/more powerful than the best supercomputer available today, just to scan a single human being.

As for your other questions, I'm not going to try and explain the past 2400 posts in a single thread, rest assured, we worked out how the computer can pull it off.

Also, from talks with Jerome, we believe Project Carthage was up to more than just blocking enemy communications - I always feel Franz was about to start listing other applications when Jeremie cuts him off - one of the most popular theories is that it was an independant think-tank that became militarized when the funding ran out.

[Sithking Zero offline]

Makes sense.

BTW, what's the reason the Digital Sea exists?

I mean, for Franz, wasn't it supposed to be a "World without danger," to keep him and his daughter safe?

See, maybe I'm not thinking like a genius, but doesn't common sense dictate that narrow catwalks high over a massive sea of super-deadly water that could kill you seem like a BAD IDEA if you're trying to make the ultimate safe house?

Then again, perhaps Franzie is channeling the spirit of James Bond villians...

[Malkmusian offline]

I think why the Digital Sea exists because Lyoko is in a network of many worlds and the Sea is like the Recycle Bin on our computers. Everything that goes into it comes out, but using some programs, you can undelete objects (like Yumi and William).

On other news, why can't you just Ctrl-Alt-Delete XANA?

[jaimehlers offline]

Nicely said Jaimehlers - have you read through the older LTT files? I feel they would be really worth your time, and we'd be glad to hear your thoughts!

Thanks. I have a lot of down time at my job (right now I'm setting up a whole bunch of computers and there are some periods of time when I just have to sit and twiddle my thumbs), so I may very well do that one of these days.

Regarding rampancy, I've heard of it too, and it's a general term from Halo/Marathon as Test Subject said. It wouldn't surprise me one bit to find that the creators of Code Lyoko were at least passingly familiar with it. They might not use the word "rampant" to describe XANA in the context of the show, but XANA's current behavior is awfully close to the jealousy stage of rampancy for it to be merely coincidental. I think the HAL comparison is actually quite good, although XANA is further along than HAL (plus had access to a better computer to begin with). I don't think XANA became rampant because of a programming contradiction, however, unlike HAL.

Regarding the jellyfish, it appears to be able to either remove or add code for a person's avatar on Lyoko (I don't think it's complex enough to rewrite it, though). For example, one time it prevented Yumi from devirtualizing by stealing her digital DNA. It's also been able to XANAfy people, such as Aelita and William. I believe it's limited to directly removing or adding code from their avatar, rather than rewriting it (as a virus would do). Remember, a computer virus, like a real one, works by hijacking whatever system it's in and rewriting it to accomplish whatever task it's designed for.

You know, I always wondered what would have happened had Aelita succeeded in transferring her own digital DNA into Yumi. I'll grant that I don't completely understand how digital DNA works, but logic would suggest that digital DNA is based on one's real body. Anyway, I couldn't help but wonder if that would have caused Yumi to devirtualize in Aelita's body. Off the wall, but since something similar happened to Odd and Yumi later on, it's at least possible. *shrug*

[TB3]

(nods) Sounds good

(pause)

Right

(deep breath)

Last night's episode has prompted a massive rethink of Lyoko. Chupathingy42 and I (I was on Skype with him when we watched the episode) had a massive debate trying to work out 'what' the Network is...because it's not the internet...it's partly the net, but not quite.

The Network, is Zero-Point-Space (ZPS).

Remember that when we hit on the idea of Zero-Point-Space we had the idea that it was a 'sea' of virtual particles, that can combine to form energy and matter.

Well...that's exactly what the Network is doing...that city is a representation of the internet and every computer on this planet - a representation caused by the quantum effects of running an electrical device - the virtual particles are attracted to these energy signitures like metal filings to a magnet, and combine to form representations and solid shapes.

And do you know how we know this...because we've seen it happen.

In 'William Returns', when Jeremie reconstructs Lyoko, we see him input data into the network (ZPS), and THEN that data and the 'water virtual particles' fuse (remember how Jeremie used to talk about fusing virtual particles in Season One) and form into Lyoko.

And that means, that Lyoko EXISTS in a physical sense, in Zero-Point-Space. It exists alongside our own, just on a different quantum phase.

However, Lyoko is still dependant on the supercomputer, because it is an extension of the Supercomputer. The 'Core of Lyoko' is like the point where incoming data from the supercomputer is distributed among the sectors, which means that to reconstruct Lyoko, all Jeremie and Aelita had to do was write programs to recreate the core and the way towers - all the important sector data was still in the supercomputer, and just needed a means of distribution.

---

How's that sound?

EDIT:

I just realised that what I wrote sounds weirdly...uh...biblical. I just found this is the book of Genesis. Oh, and though I support the theory of evolution, I think Lyoko is one world that can DEFINATELY owe it's origins to 'intelligent design'

In the beginning, when God created the universe, the earth was formless and desolate. The raging ocean that covered everything was engulfed in total darkness.

(skipping ahead)

Then God commanded "Let there be a dome to divide the water and to keep it in two seperate places" - and it was done.

(skipping more)

Then God commanded "Let the water below the sky come together in one place, so that the land will appear" - and it was done. He named the land 'Lyoko'...uh...'Earth' and the water which had come together "sea".

Given that this paralells the creation of Lyoko, is it any wonder that by the end Franz had developed a bit of a God Complex

[Taelia offline]

Ooooooo! Nice! =D

[jaimehlers offline]

Hmm...that's certainly one way of looking at it. It reminds me a little bit of Reboot, too, when they had to reboot Mainframe.

[Sithking Zero offline]

Well...that's exactly what the Network is doing...that city is a representation of the internet and every computer on this planet - a representation caused by the quantum effects of running an electrical device - the virtual particles are attracted to these energy signitures like metal filings to a magnet, and combine to form representations and solid shapes.

Does that mean that massive computer failures could occur if damage was done to the city?

[jaimehlers offline]

Well, presumably damage to a building would be expressed as computer fragmentation or even possibly bad hard drive sectors on the computer that was running it, just to name an example.

[Malkmusian offline]

I think you haven't answered this one:

While translated into 2D while retaining their Lyoko outfits, can any of them take off the outfit?

[TB3]

I think you haven't answered this one:

While translated into 2D while retaining their Lyoko outfits, can any of them take off the outfit?

Hmm, a tough one.

We know their 2D Lyoko forms are polymorphic spectres, and spectres certainly can mimic the appearance and functions of a human, down to a very deep level (Willia clone for example).

However, these 2D forms are NOT 'true' humans as such (Odd for example has cat-hands and a tail) - it is their Lyoko data injected into a spectre which then shapes to mimic that data - and given that Aelita 'phased out' when attacked, I'd theorise these bodies are wireframe constructs, clothes and all, with the implication that no, clothes can't be removed.

However, this is all conjecture and can't be proved one way or another unless the show states as such.

[Kamekai offline]

so your saying that if you looked into Ulrich's sleeve, you would see the clothes intersect with the skin?

you guy's think it would be a good idea to create a Code Lyoko wiki containing all of our current theories?

[TB3]

so your saying that if you looked into Ulrich's sleeve, you would see the clothes intersect with the skin?

you guy's think it would be a good idea to create a Code Lyoko wiki containing all of our current theories?

It's a good idea Kamekai - however it's been tried twice before, and in each case, the Wiki fades away but the thread keeps going - this current thread is the 3rd installment of LTT.

You're welcome to try though

---

The revelation of the Network has opened up new possibilities in our understanding of Lyoko's history - for example, we know Project Carthage wanted to somehow 'block enemy communications' - what if that was be achieved through the Network (along with more...destructive capacities - imagine being able to casually enter the Kremlin's isolated network and tell all those pesky ICBMs to fall straight back onto their silos should someone in Moscow decide to actually use those big red keys that make things go BOOM!), and the same can possibly be said for how XANA was meant to fulfil his purpose in 'destroying Carthage'.

Thoughts?

[Malkmusian offline]

I think parts of the project still exist and that's why XANA is so freakin' bent on destroying Lyoko.