S3 Episode 15: Xana Awakens - Part 2

[Tekirai offline]

I feel like marrying YouTube right now.

I loved it when Odd went 'meowww!' at the start of the episode! That was just awesome. Heh, MEOWW.

It's definitely better than part 1. OMG U/Y YAYYY. But... Falldownblushy happened again differently this time. Which I liked better. :D Yay.

That has to be one of my favourite quotes right now... the yuri thing. I'd be mad if someone called me that too. Still, it was hilarious. xDD

Kankrelats bouncing over the platforms! Gaaah. I want one as a pet.

Well, Sissi had good intentions, I suppose. And then this is where Ulrich starts being moody. Hurrah.

Now to see STH in English. Being the first episode I ever saw in French, this should be interesting.

[Taelia offline]

Sissi was nice in her cheerleader outfit. And Odd was flirty around Sissi AND Aelita. Matt did a great job. Odd's gonna alway be a svelte pimp!

[Rail Runner offline]

They all did a great job...everything went smoothly. I just cant wait to see what today brings..

I loved watching the monsters jump on the ice..that was cool...and Aelita's little slide trick was awesome..bye bye Kankrelat.

[Darkness Incarnate offline]

Is it just me or did Yumi get really lucky hitting 2 blocks even thou she did not know how to use her fan.
P.S I love how the fan popped out of her back lol.

[TB3]

Is it just me or did Yumi get really lucky hitting 2 blocks even thou she did not know how to use her fan.
P.S I love how the fan popped out of her back lol.

I loved it too, as it finally confirms WHERE Yumi gets her fans from - they're tucked into her sash.

And just a thought - if the avatars are really built from the user's subconcious, then maybe there's an explanation for the error with Yumi's kimono (it's folded in a manner reserved only for corpses about to be cremated).

The reason? Yumi was convinced she was gonna die when she got into the scanner, and dressed accordingly for her own funeral!

[MY85 offline]

Yumi was convinced she was gonna die when she got into the scanner, and dressed accordingly for her own funeral!

Lol, I'll agree with that, TB3. But who likes to go experimenting for things that no one else has tried it before? I know you guys wouldn't be scared to go into those scanner to go into Lyoko, but there's still the thought about what if the TSV process goes bad (and it happened before).

[Rail Runner offline]

Good point Rodri...if something would have happened, then it would have been appropriate....I do like her hiding spot for the fans...really cool.

[UltimaHedgie offline]

Y'know how Sissy wanted to be a cheerleader? I was thinking a bit about that... if Sissy ever went into Lyoko, ya' think she'd end up in some sort of cheerleader-like outfit? I think it'd be rather interesting to see... you never know, she may join up with the crew in one of the next two seasons.

As for Jeremie--I don't think Jeremie actually 'virtualized' himself. He only said that he 'scanned' himself, and I don't know if that means he actually transfered himself into Lyoko. From my perspective, I make out of it that he simply scanned himself in there--which holds his data in the supercomputer, allowing him to remember things after an RTTP. I don't know, though... it's a theory, at least.

Anyway, can't wait for today's episode.

[Rail Runner offline]

Well..remember that in Season 2, he actually did go to Lyoko..but he said it was his first time ever...so based on that, this was just a scan to keep himself from forgetting stuff after the RTTP.

[Darkness Incarnate offline]

Well..remember that in Season 2, he actually did go to Lyoko..but he said it was his first time ever...so based on that, this was just a scan to keep himself from forgetting stuff after the RTTP.

Yes but he also said after doing it a few times that he would never do it again. This was the esp when xana took over him.

[Rail Runner offline]

Ahhh good point...point taken.

[TB3]

Well..remember that in Season 2, he actually did go to Lyoko..but he said it was his first time ever...so based on that, this was just a scan to keep himself from forgetting stuff after the RTTP.

Yes but he also said after doing it a few times that he would never do it again. This was the esp when xana took over him.

The fact that Jeremie has only ever done a passive scan of himself is proved by two points:

1: He has a playing card like the other group members, but it only shws his 'normal' self, not a Lyoko avatar

2: How did his ankle heal miraculously between 'Code: Earth' and 'False Start'? The answer is that Jeremie regularly scans himself so that in case of injury during an attack, he can go into the scanner and have his body, but not his mind, reconstructed as the 'saved' version.

Hope that helps

[Rail Runner offline]

Thanks Teebs...that is sorta what I was gonna say, but you said it before I could say it.

[TB3]

Thanks Teebs...that is sorta what I was gonna say, but you said it before I could say it.

You're welcome man!

(stretches, cracks knuckles)

Ah! It's good to be active again!

[Rail Runner offline]

I bet...oh hey Teebs..did you like the part where the Kankrelats figured out how to jump...that was cool..the Blocks didnt learn that ability yet..haha.

[Keiji offline]

Those episodes ROCKED!

Jeremie's voice was the only bad thing, but I guess I'll get used to it.

Maia, what a strange name. Where did Jeremie get that from anyhow?

Go ffmpeg! Who needs Teklinks?

[TL.]

Did you wonder why Yumi kicked Ulrich so hard when he called her Yuri by mistake in the gym? Well, translated from Japanese, Yuri means lesbian!

[Keiji offline]

I knew that, but Yuri is actually an ordinary Japanese name IIRC.

[Mewberries151]

And just a thought - if the avatars are really built from the user's subconcious, then maybe there's an explanation for the error with Yumi's kimono (it's folded in a manner reserved only for corpses about to be cremated).

The reason? Yumi was convinced she was gonna die when she got into the scanner, and dressed accordingly for her own funeral!

Ha! You've totally got my vote on that theory!

That also explains why it switches what side it's folded over as well...I guess she's just feeling more optimistic on certain Lyoko trips than on others. X)

Actually, I thought that was really funny and clever! Ha...makes one wonder if Jim didn't get some sense of Deja Vu in "TeddyGozilla". X)

5 words. "Return to the past, now." Yeah, everything gets screwed up by that, every reset when we don't want occurs, every developement we wish of the secondary characters erased. Unless we go by the whole memory suppression theory instead of the the memory erasure theory, doubtful they'd ever know or care.

Err...I wasn't suggesting that he remembered completely or something like that. I was really just joking. If we go by the memory suppression theory though, then by all means, I'd imagine he'd have gotten a small case of deja vu in "Teddygozilla".

Honestly though, I was just joking. ^^

Well, now, isn't that a bit unfair. Sure she ratted them out, but from the infirmary scene, she did show a sense of worry and concern. The fact was, she did do the wrong thing for the right reasons. One of the basic things instilled into childhood by parents is to blab when their peers is doing something that is wrong or dangerous. The fact that she blabbed would have been acceptable given entirely different standards, and the fact of the matter that their elders ordered the shutting down of the computer, who to follow, your elders or your peers?

Neither...you go with what you inwardly feel is the right thing it is to do. You listen to your heart. Sissi's obviously told her that shutting off the computer, regardless of what that did to Aelita, was okay.

And actually, her blabbing in any given situation, without the gang's vote on it, wouldn't have been cool with them anyway.

In "Seeing is Believing", they had to take a vote as to whether or not Yumi could tell the police and firemen about the impending XANA attack on the power plant, And even then, Aelita had to cast the deciding vote due to a tie.

Yumi did not go blabbing and warning everyone without running it past the group's vote...thus why no one got mad (Well...Jeremie got a little peeved, but that's because he was out-voted...and by Aelita ^^).

The quick blurb about saying that they've come to save him in the end, probably means little to their judgement of Sissi's actions. And rarely do people care about motives, only actions and consequences. The fact that they even possibly knew her motives means nothing for the scorn they are soon to give, justified or not (which is debateable). Examples, Ulrich in The Chips are Down. Motive was well-meant, but the action caused an uproar. Heck, throughout Season 1, most of her actions were motivated by wants of friendship and affection, but it doesn't mean they won't treat it as the dealings of a imbecilic brat.

I'm not sure exactly what you're arguing there. It seems to me you're saying that knowing Sissi's motives don't matter to them, and that they only judge by actions.

I would argue that you're half right. Actions speak louder than words, unfortunately. Sissi's motives to "protect the group" were well-founded, but her approach to them was wrong.

However, your mentioning of most of her actions in season 1 being motivated by her wanting to have friends and affection makes for a bad case though. If you want to be someone's friend, you do not blackmail them with the private thoughts they've written down in their diary. If you want to be someone's friend, you don't send them a fake love letter signed from someone they care about, and then proceed to humiliate them with it. If you want to be someone's friend, you don't call them "Geek/nerd/creep"...or any amount of the names she called Jeremie and Odd in season 1. Her approach in season 2 was much better. Her approach in season 1 however, sent serious mixed signals, for which she has no one to blame but herself.

And again, Ulrich's case in "The Chips are Down" is a completely different scenario from Sissi's. The risk Ulrich took was not equal to the risks Sissi took in "XANA Awakens" in not only bringing adults into the Factory, but then agreeing that the super computer should be shut down.

Now I agree she could probably get around telling them a whole lot less if she wanted to help them herself. At the very start, they didn't trust her. It took them just to get to the factory before they actually started to take her seriously and if she really wanted to lose them as well as keep the thing a secret, chances are with her that she could do it. But she just have been barbaqued by an electric monster and she doesn't know how to beat it or help Jeremie and the gang beat it. This is prior to finding out that tower deactivation will lead to the monster shutting off. So what is she supposed to do that will help? She can't stop it and she believes her friends can't stop it, how about sending in an adult, someone older, smarter, wiser, stronger, maybe they can stop it.

I also agree that it was very rude and arrogant to agree with the adults so enthusiastically that they should shut down the supercomputer and I'm not forgiving her of the action, but I'd just chalk that up to Sissi being Sissi. If she really wanted to be on their side, she would of done better either to be quiet or better yet, stand up for them, saying how much it truly meant to keep the computer on.

Then this proves that Sissi just isn't cut out for this kind of thing. If she can't stick up for her so-called friends in the face of adversity, particularly in front of her father who she holds quite a bit of sway over (which makes her agreeing with the both of them all the more irritating), then she really ought not to be involved in this kind of "life or death" battle.

Just think of it from Team Lyoko's point of view, or even more personal, Jeremie's. He trusted a girl that he had barely even knew before this whole mess, and here she turns around and not only blabs his biggest secret, but then says it's totally okay to shut off the super computer, effectively making his newfound and best friend "dead".

Ulrich likely felt similarly betrayed. He wasn't incredibly fond of Sissi to begin with, as she stuck to him like glue. Here he was finally beginning to trust her, sharing a secret with her, and she exposed it on him.

Your last three paragraphs kinda gets into an ethical and philosophical debate. At this point in time, she's still believed to be an AI. Now for the next few thoughts, just try to keep in the POV that this is still pre-Season 1, Season 2-3 never happened and for all intents and purpose, Aelita is an artificially created intelligence. According to the normal guidelines of biology, she isn't in anyway considered a "life". Even if she is an emotional, free thinking individual, she is not considered human and it is arguable that her destruction would not be a loss. We have no current guidelines on how to judge the self-worth of an artificial intelligence, and I wouldn't even be surprised if a good deal of mankind consider them expendable for human safety. After all, if she is created before, surely someone can create her again, to think in the exact same way she does now. Of course this is not the way I truely feel, and I understand feelings of self-worth from creatures that are not human. The point is, the rest of humanity may not agree, and you can't blame Sissi for thinking that way. And even then, they just said shut down the computer. I wonder why they can't shut down the computer, if it has been off for an obviously extensive amount of time. Surely if Aelita has survived all that time, she can survive a shut of for some more until Jeremie got her to safety (albeit, possibly with memory erasure, thats what I would think caused her amnesia if I was in Jeremie's place at the time).

Being "human" isn't the factor here. I really don't like getting into ethics/philosophy in CL...since most of it is relative. But honestly, this isn't about "killing a human"...it's about killing a sentient being.

It's the same arguement that can be applied to clones. Are they still human, even though they were created in a petri dish?

But actually...why I'm frustrated with her saying, "Sure let's shut the computer off", is that she said it in much the same way you'd say "Sure, let's put him down" about an old dog that had outlived it's usefulness. It was her tone that got me (and again the fact that she wasn't sticking up for her "friends").

For me, a life is a life, whether human, plant, animal, and to some extent even technological. The concept of "life" is far too varied to put a definition on, because honestly, some of the robots we have today (as well as the well-known humanoids in Sci-Fi movies) are pretty close to being life-like.

And before, anyone says, "Chill...Aelita's just a cartoon character"...I know. I'm just speaking in terms of this being a realistic situation.

And really, if self-worth of an artificial intelligence is so great a reason that any understandible and clear-thinking human individual would come to the same conclusion that she should be spared, Jeremie and the rest obviously don't believe others like principal Delmas or Jim would understand, thus the whole point of the secret. Others would rather sacrifice the safety of the whole for the cost of a "non-human" life. We already do that with normal humans before in special cases.

And I absolutely can't stand that. I honestly feel that the only person/entity who should be allowed to decide whether to sacrifice their existence or not, is the being itself. No one else should have the right to make that choice, at least that's what I believe.

Sissi was making the choice to sacrifice Aelita. Not Aelita herself...and Sissi did not appear to care that Aelita wouldn't be involved in the matter at all. That just does not sit right with me in terms of character.

And obviously, the adults were about to handle it all wrong. Not only were they telling Jeremie to shut the super computer down, but they were going to call the police. That would have gotten Jeremie in trouble (as he'd been salvaging parts there), but likely would have resulted in the destruction of the super computer and the true death of Aelita. Humans destroy what they don't understand...that's just a sad truth for the most part.

Hehe - looks like I kicked off a Sissi debate - mucha gratias to Mew and Animenologist.

I also have a quick though - some suggest that Sissi is a 'traitor' for suggesting turning off the Supercomputer - Animenologist has rightly pointed out that this is NOT tantamount to murder - the memory systems are not power-dependant and Aelita will not be harmed (heck I think they probably DID turn off the supercomputer during holiday periods - do you see the gang running around trying to save the world at Christmas?).

But we don't know that for sure. I admittedly have not understood much of what is said in LTT (Physics and Computer Sciences...well, let's just say I'm about as good as Ulrich is in that respect ^^).

But the point stands is that we don't know precisely how the super computer works (unless of course, Jerome told you how it works, in which case, my apologies). We can only theorize. And we definitely don't know if they turned the supercomputer off during holidays (in fact, "Holiday in the Fog" proves they don't). I doubt Jeremie would have allowed them to take such a risk.

What's more, who's to say that, if shutting off the computer doesn't harm Aelita in some way, that there isn't a specific way to shut it down that doesn't hurt the memory.

Much like how one can safely shut off their own computer, and not lose any of the programs and files saved inside it, I'd be more than willing to believe the super computer can work the same way, but I'd imagine it would have some sort of "safe shut down" process involved.

What's even more, is that it wasn't going to stop at simply turning off the computer. Jim and the principal were going to call the police. The police, upon seeing the technology, would have called the Feds, and since humans tend to destroy what they don't understand in some way or another, Aelita's fate was sealed one way or another.

Sissi made a big mistake involving Jim and her dad, and an even bigger one agreeing that the super computer should be shut off.

I'd also point out that in two episodes time, chronologically, half the group vote in favour of busting the secret wide open in Seeing is Believing - from their perspective, they are in over their heads and need to tell the authorities.

From Sissi's perspective here it's the exact same thing - it's hard to hold that against her.

The key word though there, is "vote". The group took a vote before Yumi did anything, meaning they all felt it was required. Yumi did not run off and tell the authorities of her own accord, which is more or less what Sissi did.

What's more, when Yumi informed the authorities, she did not even mention Lyoko at first. All she said was that the power plant was in danger. She only resorted to telling the authorities remotely about Lyoko and the super computer and XANA after the firemen insisted on not taking her word for it. Sissi, however, blurted Lyoko right out...and again, she did it without the group's vote, and against their group promise.

And although I agree, she might have been more of a liability at this point to the group, haven't her actions subsequently redeemed her - I'll admit she's done some horrible things, mostly in trying to manipulate the group, but from 'Log Book' onwards she has shown steel, resolve, altruism and trustworthiness. And her courage has climbed as a result.

And this cultimated in Ultimatum - Jodi's favorite episode and one of mine.

What she does afterword isn't valid here though. This is about what she did in the very beginning that made the group feel betrayed, and honestly, I think they were rather justified in being hurt by it and not wanting to include her into the group afterwords.

She's got alot to make up for honestly( from XANA Awakens and through into the start of season 2), as her actions in "Logbook" and in "Swarming Attack" are particularly cruel, and her treatment of Aelita in the beginning of season 2 is completely uncalled for.

And her resentment of Millie and Tamiya in season 1 still seems inexcuseable. They don't explain what the deal is there...but that is something to consider. One should treat others as they'd like to be treated.

I approve of her taking a turn for the better (or so it seems) and not resorting to underhanded tactics and humiliating personal attacks on the group...but in light of what she nearly did to Aelita...I honestly can't blame thr group for being reluctant to involve her any further.

Keep in mind that, while her actions in "Ultimatum" were indeed quite heroic, she was protecting a life with her own. She has yet to be confronted with the kind of choice she was presented in "XANA Awakens" again, and only that will be able to set things completely straight in all fairness. She didn't know in season 2 that Aelita was connected to the super computer still...in fact, turning the computer off didn't even arise as an option or idea to her (which would have been interesting to see, if it had).

Sissi needs another chance at deciding whether or not to keep the super computer on for things to truly be resolved. Considering the fact that Franz Hopper is still trapped in there as of the present...she may very well get a second chance.

I can only hope that she chooses correctly though.

On other notes, is it possible that the events of this episode are responsible for substantial developments in the characters:

ULRICH: In ths episode he seems quite confident and self-assured to the point of seeming selfish. However, by Teddygozilla he's a (and I quote Barbara) 'moody sullen twelve-year-old'.

Actually, my impressions were exactly the opposite. Guys display loneliness differently than girls tend to do.

His disdain for Odd is decently justified, considering Odd started ribbing him about his "girlfriend" from day one, and then let Kiwi have a play day in his stuff...and a toilet break in his bed.

Ulrich did not strike me as confident though nor self-assured, with the exception of his sparring match with Yumi (in which he was promptly pinned)...and his reaction to Jeremie's "secret" (which honestly, Odd would have reacted to in much the same fashion).

He seemed particularly touched by Yumi's "I don't have any friends." The look on his face when she says it, and when she repeats it later, seemed very sympathetic...and understanding. Ulrich seemed to feel new to the concept of having "friends" himself. Before meeting Odd and getting to know Jeremie better, it seems that Sissi was the only one he interacted with at all, and clearly it really wasn't a sort of "friendship" at that time either.

If he seems self-confident, it's likely because it's a typical front for being lonely, as is any selfish-ness. It's the classic, "No one really cares about me, so why should I care about anyone else?" I can only imagine this is also influenced by his homelife, in particular with his father.

What caused this? Is it possible that first exposure to love (Yumi) and reconsideration of his strongly-held attitudes towards Odd, caused Ulrich to doubt himself and turn introspective, with the general emo-ness following as a result.

I honestly still don't get why everyone calls Ulrich, "emo". He's introverted and introspective, but that doesn't make him an automatic "emo".

SISSI: We've all pointed out how this first rejection by the gang turned her into a brat, but did it also force her to shape up and stop being a ditz - I mean, do we ever see her AGAIN, acting so blatantly stupid. Also it seems that she begins to apply herself, because we know she DOES make Cheerleader by 'Zero Gravity Zone' - just a thought.

Erm..."TeddyGozilla" might counteract that idea of her not being a bit of a ditz afterwards. Also, she has some very obvious, "duh" moments, in "Is Anybody Out There?" ('Ping and pong' energies?) for example. ^^;

I don't mean to diss her or anything...but even Ulrich caught her on that one. X)


...And I think I may have beaten my personal "post length" record with this response. ^^;

[animenologist offline]

Is it pretty much becoming tradition that a large and lengthy debate will involve the two of us taking relatively opposing sides? This is what, our 4th or 5th debate? Or maybe I can't seem to reach a balance between talking too little or talking too much. Oh well.

Neither...you go with what you inwardly feel is the right thing it is to do. You listen to your heart. Sissi's obviously told her that shutting off the computer, regardless of what that did to Aelita, was okay.

And actually, her blabbing in any given situation, without the gang's vote on it, wouldn't have been cool with them anyway.

In "Seeing is Believing", they had to take a vote as to whether or not Yumi could tell the police and firemen about the impending XANA attack on the power plant, And even then, Aelita had to cast the deciding vote due to a tie.

Yumi did not go blabbing and warning everyone without running it past the group's vote...thus why no one got mad (Well...Jeremie got a little peeved, but that's because he was out-voted...and by Aelita ^^).

But given a totally different scenario or a totally different outcome and suddenly, everything becomes acceptable. She followed her heart and decided to tattle. What would happen if they were losing and all of them about to be roasted. Jim and Principal Delmas comes in, and in some way, shape, or form, manages to save them. Would she still have been wrong to blab? In the end, the consequences proved to be out of Sissi's favor and that caused them to turn on her, but the fact that she tattled was not a total justification for their scorn.

Take as a real-world hypothetical. My sibling has secretly gotten involved in illicit activity, and I want to get him out of trouble discreetly. My friend, somehow gotten word of it, in which I had sworn him to secrecy. It turns out that I'm about to to get into a situation that may turn out lethal. My friend goes and contacts the authorities without my knowledge. Is he in the wrong? Whether or not it ultimately was wrong, I guess would depend on the consequences, but you can't blame my friend for following his conscience anymore than you can blame Sissi.

And for Seeing is Believing, what ultimately happened when Yumi decided to tell? She failed and costed the gang a third warrior. She couldn't convince the firemen, police, or principal what was going on and her decision to tell placed them at a disadvantage. Couldn't it be interpretted as Yumi breaking under the pressure and forcing the gang to come forth, just as Sissi has been accused of doing in this episode? Had she never spoken up, they would of been in the scanners sooner, had more defenders on Lyoko, and possibly have been done sooner and not have cut it so close.

I'm not sure exactly what you're arguing there. It seems to me you're saying that knowing Sissi's motives don't matter to them, and that they only judge by actions.

I would argue that you're half right. Actions speak louder than words, unfortunately. Sissi's motives to "protect the group" were well-founded, but her approach to them was wrong.

However, your mentioning of most of her actions in season 1 being motivated by her wanting to have friends and affection makes for a bad case though. If you want to be someone's friend, you do not blackmail them with the private thoughts they've written down in their diary. If you want to be someone's friend, you don't send them a fake love letter signed from someone they care about, and then proceed to humiliate them with it. If you want to be someone's friend, you don't call them "Geek/nerd/creep"...or any amount of the names she called Jeremie and Odd in season 1. Her approach in season 2 was much better. Her approach in season 1 however, sent serious mixed signals, for which she has no one to blame but herself.

And again, Ulrich's case in "The Chips are Down" is a completely different scenario from Sissi's. The risk Ulrich took was not equal to the risks Sissi took in "XANA Awakens" in not only bringing adults into the Factory, but then agreeing that the super computer should be shut down.

That actually reminds of a Sissi discussion I posted in a few months ago when I made references to Sissi being similar to Helga G. Pataki from Hey Arnold! Yes if she really wanted to get in close, half the things she did in Season 1 were not 2 steps back, but 10. If Sissi wanted to get closer, she shouldn't have done this and she shouldn't have done that. If Helga wanted to get closer to Arnold, she shouldn't shoot spitballs at him, shouldn't constantly threaten him with old Betsy, shouldn't constantly be calling him football head, shouldn't basically treat him like dirt throughout 4th grade. The method was wrong, just as Sissi's, yet she was brought up to a sympathetic character. She just didn't know how to communicate herself to Arnold.

Similar argument can be made of Sissi. Afterall, they started to be mean to her because of things she doesn't even remember doing. And nothing she could do seems to be working, so she had to try other, more devious methods. The gang already doesn't mind being mean to Sissi for the sake of being mean. Take Big Bug for example. Ulrich and Odd play a joke on her and humiliate her. She takes her revenge by uncovering Kiwi to Jim. What do they do? They think her totally at fault and not only played the joke again, they made it worse, and decided to take pictures. The nice thing to do, would just to stop the prank before it started, but no, they just decided to be mean.

Then this proves that Sissi just isn't cut out for this kind of thing. If she can't stick up for her so-called friends in the face of adversity, particularly in front of her father who she holds quite a bit of sway over (which makes her agreeing with the both of them all the more irritating), then she really ought not to be involved in this kind of "life or death" battle.

Just think of it from Team Lyoko's point of view, or even more personal, Jeremie's. He trusted a girl that he had barely even knew before this whole mess, and here she turns around and not only blabs his biggest secret, but then says it's totally okay to shut off the super computer, effectively making his newfound and best friend "dead".

Ulrich likely felt similarly betrayed. He wasn't incredibly fond of Sissi to begin with, as she stuck to him like glue. Here he was finally beginning to trust her, sharing a secret with her, and she exposed it on him.

Not letting her into the gang, I agree. Failing to see it from her POV and holding it to her after she forgets it entirely, is another thing. She couldn't handle it, thats fine, don't let her be a Lyoko warrior. But did Ulrich really needs to say he'll be sticking with his "real friends."

Being "human" isn't the factor here. I really don't like getting into ethics/philosophy in CL...since most of it is relative. But honestly, this isn't about "killing a human"...it's about killing a sentient being.

It's the same arguement that can be applied to clones. Are they still human, even though they were created in a petri dish?

But actually...why I'm frustrated with her saying, "Sure let's shut the computer off", is that she said it in much the same way you'd say "Sure, let's put him down" about an old dog that had outlived it's usefulness. It was her tone that got me (and again the fact that she wasn't sticking up for her "friends").

For me, a life is a life, whether human, plant, animal, and to some extent even technological. The concept of "life" is far too varied to put a definition on, because honestly, some of the robots we have today (as well as the well-known humanoids in Sci-Fi movies) are pretty close to being life-like.

And before, anyone says, "Chill...Aelita's just a cartoon character"...I know. I'm just speaking in terms of this being a realistic situation.

The way sentience is defined, we as human-kind don't hold much stock in that either. A cow is defined as sentient, and we'd sooner slaughter it for hamburger, than fight for its right to eat grass. Anything that is self-aware of itself is considered sentient, but only one of which we actually consider of any decent self-worth, humans.

And again the fact that mankind as it currently stands have no major feelings of concern for the self-worth of non-human sentience, means that Sissi shouldn't be blamed for taking one popular side over the other. The only thing she did wrong that deserved disdain, but not necessarily complete abandonment, is the fact that she abandoned them to side with her father. That error is not immediately forgiveable, but I'm sure it should be easy enough since technically, now she never commited it.

One argument I never like and never will use in discussion is that she's just a cartoon character, unless someone has lost all ties to reality. Never liked the, its just a game, never liked its just a book, never liked, its just fiction. If the discussion is serious, I'll take it seriously.

And I absolutely can't stand that. I honestly feel that the only person/entity who should be allowed to decide whether to sacrifice their existence or not, is the being itself. No one else should have the right to make that choice, at least that's what I believe.

Sissi was making the choice to sacrifice Aelita. Not Aelita herself...and Sissi did not appear to care that Aelita wouldn't be involved in the matter at all. That just does not sit right with me in terms of character.

And obviously, the adults were about to handle it all wrong. Not only were they telling Jeremie to shut the super computer down, but they were going to call the police. That would have gotten Jeremie in trouble (as he'd been salvaging parts there), but likely would have resulted in the destruction of the super computer and the true death of Aelita. Humans destroy what they don't understand...that's just a sad truth for the most part.

Yes it is sometimes sad, but that is the reality of the situation. And you have to take things into the context of the current setting. The founding fathers of America were considered some of the greatest political thinkers in our country's history and yet a good deal of them were slaveowners. Now according to our modern thinking, slavery is considered a universal error. But we will not go back and say that the people back them were evil, just because they lived in a time where the reality is, slavery was acceptable. The current reality, whether right or wrong (and I'm not saying either is correct), is that ones sentience does not guarantee self-worth or a right to the same things we normally believe human beings are entitled to.

And that's all of the stuff you addressed towards me. I actually do have a few things I would like to say concerning your points towards TB3, but maybe I should let him have his say first.

That and if I reply to your thoughts on TB3 points as well, the post will put everyone who reads it to sleep due to its length.

[TB3]

Lol, roll on part 2 Animenologist - you and Mew are making for very good reading - great to see two of LF's mightiest minds rolling up their sleeves for a verbal Battle Royale!

[animenologist offline]

Well, since I have TB3's blessings, allow me to continue then.

But we don't know that for sure. I admittedly have not understood much of what is said in LTT (Physics and Computer Sciences...well, let's just say I'm about as good as Ulrich is in that respect ^^).

But the point stands is that we don't know precisely how the super computer works (unless of course, Jerome told you how it works, in which case, my apologies). We can only theorize. And we definitely don't know if they turned the supercomputer off during holidays (in fact, "Holiday in the Fog" proves they don't). I doubt Jeremie would have allowed them to take such a risk.

What's more, who's to say that, if shutting off the computer doesn't harm Aelita in some way, that there isn't a specific way to shut it down that doesn't hurt the memory.

Much like how one can safely shut off their own computer, and not lose any of the programs and files saved inside it, I'd be more than willing to believe the super computer can work the same way, but I'd imagine it would have some sort of "safe shut down" process involved.

What's even more, is that it wasn't going to stop at simply turning off the computer. Jim and the principal were going to call the police. The police, upon seeing the technology, would have called the Feds, and since humans tend to destroy what they don't understand in some way or another, Aelita's fate was sealed one way or another.

Sissi made a big mistake involving Jim and her dad, and an even bigger one agreeing that the super computer should be shut off.

The safe-shut down actually does make sense and I could guess Jeremie never found out how, probably had something to do with Carthage, and as we know, the inner workings of Lyoko had remained a mystery for a good deal of time and even after its discovery, only sorta trickled out, so they probably never found the right way to shut it off, just how to pull the plug, which a lot of my friends constantly warn me I shouldn't do with my own computer.

And I actually say you're somewhat half-right. We as humans sometimes destroy what we fear, which is usually related to what we don't understand. But at the same time, we're are a curious creature, constantly seeking more and more, for good or for ill. The Feds may have come in and dismantled it, but the they could of easily decided to put it up for study. Within the workings of the supercomputer, it contained 5 pieces of technology with the potential to revolutionize the world. Virtualization would revolutionize scanning and medical technology and would be better than even our most powerful electron microscopes or reconstructive surgery. XANA would be the ultimate military weapon. Aelita is an artificial intelligence unheard of and unthought, even a decade later after creation (again taken at the current time set). Materialization would end so many economic hardships on the world, including world hunger and would alleviate some the costs to industrialize 3rd world nations. And a time machine (compact too), possibly the height of all scientific creation. The odds are, once the capabilities of the supercomputer are known, its unlikely they're going to dimantle it for parts, its going to be studied to its finest detail.

The key word though there, is "vote". The group took a vote before Yumi did anything, meaning they all felt it was required. Yumi did not run off and tell the authorities of her own accord, which is more or less what Sissi did.

What's more, when Yumi informed the authorities, she did not even mention Lyoko at first. All she said was that the power plant was in danger. She only resorted to telling the authorities remotely about Lyoko and the super computer and XANA after the firemen insisted on not taking her word for it. Sissi, however, blurted Lyoko right out...and again, she did it without the group's vote, and against their group promise.

But it was Yumi who brought it up in the first place. Had she not raised her voice to the matter, no one else would of stepped up. By raising her voice, she brought forth discontent in the group for what ultimately what was a fruitless effort. The motive was well-intended, but in the end, didn't the consequence show it wasn't worth it?

And it seems that you are implying that her not giving out Lyoko was an admirable quality in Yumi's attempt of sounding the alarm. But realize that of the several attempts to raise the alarm about Lyoko, she was one of the ones who wasn't successful. And you could say, that cost her in the end. Had it not been for her friends, she wouldn't have made it. Compare it to Sissi in XANA's Awaken or Taelia in The Girl of the Dreams or even Jeremie to Sissi in Ultimatum. And last I remember, I don't believe Jeremie placed it to a vote before telling Sissi, Jim, or Taelia. In what way is Jeremie justified, but Sissi isn't? In what way is Sissi deserving of Season-wide scorn and Jeremie isn't?

What she does afterword isn't valid here though. This is about what she did in the very beginning that made the group feel betrayed, and honestly, I think they were rather justified in being hurt by it and not wanting to include her into the group afterwords.

She's got alot to make up for honestly( from XANA Awakens and through into the start of season 2), as her actions in "Logbook" and in "Swarming Attack" are particularly cruel, and her treatment of Aelita in the beginning of season 2 is completely uncalled for.

And her resentment of Millie and Tamiya in season 1 still seems inexcuseable. They don't explain what the deal is there...but that is something to consider. One should treat others as they'd like to be treated.

I approve of her taking a turn for the better (or so it seems) and not resorting to underhanded tactics and humiliating personal attacks on the group...but in light of what she nearly did to Aelita...I honestly can't blame thr group for being reluctant to involve her any further.

Keep in mind that, while her actions in "Ultimatum" were indeed quite heroic, she was protecting a life with her own. She has yet to be confronted with the kind of choice she was presented in "XANA Awakens" again, and only that will be able to set things completely straight in all fairness. She didn't know in season 2 that Aelita was connected to the super computer still...in fact, turning the computer off didn't even arise as an option or idea to her (which would have been interesting to see, if it had).

Sissi needs another chance at deciding whether or not to keep the super computer on for things to truly be resolved. Considering the fact that Franz Hopper is still trapped in there as of the present...she may very well get a second chance.

I can only hope that she chooses correctly though.

I would argue that Season 1, part of the problem with Sissi is that she may be reciprocating the distrust she felt from the others, for reasons she can not possibly know. But other than that, her actions from Season 1 to early Season 2 hindered any thought of her once again becoming part of her team once again. She's already show herself unable to handle danger, she can't keep a secret, and she doesn't harmonize well with group dynamics nor can she see past her own insecurities and desires to try and work within the group. She would have to really start making up to even be considered for another chance. And Ultimatum, Missing Link, and to some extent, St. Valentines Day is starting to make it up.

But in the end, all I would think that should be required of her is absolute insurance that she will keep the secret. Both Ulrich, Yumi, and Aelita have shown feelings that better she be allowed to die if it allows for the greater good. Again, Seeing is Believing, Just in Time, and Aelita did shut down the supercomputer knowing it would kill Franz Hopper inside as well as herself in The Key. So if Aelita can do that, I say, I don't care what Sissi thinks as long as she can work with the team and not betray them again, let her join.

Can't really say much about the rest you wrote other than I actually agree 100%. Is this is a first? Hope it doesn't happen too often, otherwise I won't be able to write such lengthy responses anymore. And I so do enjoy reading what you have to write.

[TB3]

(mighty applause)

BRING ON THE TICKER TAPE PARADE!

And let's give Mewberries a seat in the limozine too!

EDIT: Quick point - research suggest flipping off the power will do no damage to Lyoko orit's inhabitants, just freeze the program during the shutdown period.

[Carth]

Kankrelats bouncing over the platforms! Gaaah. I want one as a pet.

So do I...they're such cute little vermin...

I'm gonna call it Fluffy, and it will be mine. And it will be my Fluffy.

[LadyLucy offline]

Kankrelats bouncing over the platforms! Gaaah. I want one as a pet.

So do I...they're such cute little vermin...

I'm gonna call it Fluffy, and it will be mine. And it will be my Fluffy.

You could call it Mr. Squishy...