Let's Talk Tech II - Over a year of Tech! :)

[mooshie offline]

hope I don't kill the thread, but great work TB3 except one tiny thing elctrons only spin in one direction, and that never slows, but other than that great theory

[Cassius335 offline]

As for the memories - the Paradox is this:

If the original series of events never happened, how do the kids have memories of it? Yes the computer sent those memories to them, but where did IT get them from - the computer from the future. BUT if those series of events did not occur, how could the computer send that data back?

Well, first it would have to collect it. Fortunately, another part of the last batch already provides a mechanism for doing so...

The Sensor Array
This refers to the Exertanium panels covering the casing of the supercomputer, and their purpose is to monitor ZPS.

This was done by simply bolting on flat sheets of nanotubes which are NOT energised. However, fluctuations of ZPS in the vicinity of the factory cause small energy fluctuations in the nanotubes – by measuring these fluctuations and then running all that data through a set of extremely complicated algorithms, filters and processes it is possible to record all the electrical signals in the Billancourt area which push and pull at ZPS.

This might not sound particularly useful but when all that data is complied into a it allows the supercomputer to build a virtual model of the area around it, and Jeremie has been seen using this multiple times like a combination map and sensor array to track XANA’s activity in the real world. XANA also used this data to create a ‘Virtual Billancourt’ in the episode Ghost Cahnnel.

Other applications of this model are to home in on telecommunication signals in the area which the computer can hack via the modems – allowing a constant stream of intel for XANA and Jeremie and learning material for Aelita in Season One.

Security also plays a part – the model serves like a motion-sensor coupled to security cameras, alerting Jeremie as to when someone enters the factory facility, the sewer tunnel and it would seem, the grounds of the Hermitage.

Another application is to help support the other functions of the computer – large electrical disturbances in reality could damage or destroy SAPs emitted by the modems with negative outcomes, and so the computer uses the model to monitor for ‘hot-spots’ where disturbances are likely – one major hot-spot is the nuclear plant with it’s extremely high voltages, thus why the plant often appears on Jeremie’s screen.

These monitoring capabilities when added together make a formidable spying-tool. Quite what range the modems possess though is unknown. Judging from the image of a globe frequently seen on screen though, it would seem the modems can monitor any position on Earth. It is unlikely though that they continually monitor every square inch on the planet though, merely that Jeremie could shift the focus if he wanted to. Since this globe image is also seen when an RTTP is triggered it seems the computer makes a global scan for ‘tagged’ individuals.

Brain impulses are electrical signals, aren't they? Maybe once a person is tagged, it uses the sensor array to collect and keep a record of all memories 'generated' by tagged individuals. When an RTTP occurs, it's this record that is set back and delivered to the 'tagged' individuals.

It might even have more than one kind of 'tag'... I can see the kids (certainly Aelita) having a special 'Prority' tag which causes the computer, when running the global scan, to look for them before anyone else (useful at times requiring a last-second save) .

[TB3]

Cassius - I'm not refering to the mechanism of 'how' the computer obtains the memories (what you just said I agree on entirely) - what I'm quoting is the Grandfather Paradox.

i.e. if I go back in time and kill my Grandfather before he gives birth, I will not be born - however, if that is the case how could I go back and kill him - therefore I don't exist and he will live, but if he lives then I am born and I will kill him. This is an application of Temporal Causality and results in a Paradox - a conflicting situation which cannot be resolved.

As applied to Code: Lyoko what I mean is - how can the computer obtain the memories of the kids in the future if that future no longer exists - an illustrated version appears below:

Let's quote the immortal Doc Brown and say this line represents time.

PRESENT_____________________________________________FUTURE

In the future, the computer obtains the memories of the kids and sends them back.

Because of this, the timeline diverges:

PRESENT____
---------------\________________________________________NEW FUTURE

So, since the original sequence of events NEVER HAPPENED, the computer could not have obtained memories of the kids in the future because those memories DO NOT EXIST

The solution is to say that the RTTP bubble is the visual image of the original timeline being destroyed, but an imprint of that timeline exists on our world - like this;

PRESENT____--------------------------------------------------OLD TIMELINE
--------------\_________________________________________NEW TIMELINE

By Quantum Superimposition, we can thus have our cake and eat it - we can keep the memories of the future, even if that future no longer exists except as a ghost image that exists only on the Quantum Level - as long as it exists in some form, it prevents a paradox.

As for the effect of a paradox were it to occur - no-one knows, but if we again go back to Doc Brown from Back to the Future we get as good a hypothetical outcome as any;

"A Time-Paradox, which could unravel the very fabric of the Space-Time-Continuum and DESTROY THE WHOLE UNIVERSE! Granted that's a worse-case scenario, the destruction may be limited to our own galaxy!"

And Mooshie - that bit about electron spin is actually true and is used in Quantum-Dot experiments today - the two directions of Electron Spin are referred to as "Spin-Up" and "Spin-Down"

Hope this helps clear things up guys

[Cassius335 offline]

TB3, you're overthinking it. It's not like anyone's going check.

Remember what you said about how the RTTP works? That for a brief period, the computer in the present and the one in the past are one in the same time? After that period, the universe has no reason (or conciousness, as far as anyone knows) to give a s*** where anything came from. There's some extra bits floating around, but the Code: Lyoko universe (as various people here have mentioned) is a science-based one and therefore there wouldn't be anything in it's contract about having to care.

Imagine, if you will, two hard drives. One representing the present, one representing the past. They are temporarily connected together (the RTTP)and data (memories)gets transferred from one to the other. Shortly after the connection is removed, someone drops an avil or somesuch on the first 'present' hard drive, obliterating it completely. The memories? Safe on the second 'past' drive, which is duly appointed the new 'present'.

Assume a few of the memory files have bits refferring to stuff that was still on the first drive for whatever reason (say, a Word document with a hyperlink to a picture). If the person tries to remember the missing fragment (follow the link to the picture), he/she can't, because not only does the first drive not exist, the connection doesn't either (the RTTP is over). But what does a computer normally do in this instance? It maybe displays a pop-up message and then gives up. It doesn't throw a wobbly and explode

It'd be like meeting a girl but not being able to remember her face. No big deal. Happens all the time. Nothing for the universe to destroy itself over.

The only way a problem could occur is if, when the transfer was in progress, some vital part of the old data was overwritten by the new stuff, causing the computer to crash and not be able to boot up aain.

For example, a dead brain being imprinted on a live one (which, if I recall, was part of previous theory.)

[TB3]

I'm not in whole agreement with you sorry Cassius - the mean reason being that I've been a time-travel nerd for most of my life and HATE it when people explain away paradoxes with the theory of Temporal Integrity - i.e. "the universe won't let itself be destroyed"

Now there's another reason why I prefer my own idea - I'm a writer first and foremost, and I prefer the elegance of the superimposition idea - i.e. it's not a programming error that kills people, but a law of nature - also remember that this is almost indentical to how the computer learns from 'ghosts' of itself, so there's artistic sense in there too - the repetition of an underlying pricipal or theme.

Now, many might ask 'why write up all these new ideas when there was a perfectly good one already' - the answer is that the 'old' RTTP theory, along with the STM, never sat quite right with me - it seemed kinda 'wrong' and then evidence began to stack up against it and it fell apart at the seams, so when Chupathingy suggested Tachyons I went all out and wrote up this new version.

Hope that helps - and yeah, I really do over-think things, but I have my reasons - #1 of which is that I am pedantic and if the various pieces of LTT don't fit together elegantly in my mind then I become convinced we're wrong somehow and need to tweak it!

Cheers!

[Taelia offline]

TB3 wrote:

PRESENT____
---------------\________________________________________NEW FUTURE

So, since the original sequence of events NEVER HAPPENED, the computer could not have obtained memories of the kids in the future because those memories DO NOT EXIST

Good job!

[Cassius335 offline]

I'm not in whole agreement with you sorry Cassius - the mean reason being that I've been a time-travel nerd for most of my life and HATE it when people explain away paradoxes with the theory of Temporal Integrity - i.e. "the universe won't let itself be destroyed"

Exactly wrong. "Let itself" implies intent. More like the universe isn't going to crash because a few extra bits of data containing the odd dead link.

Now there's another reason why I prefer my own idea - I'm a writer first and foremost, and I prefer the elegance of the superimposition idea - i.e. it's not a programming error that kills people, but a law of nature

TB3, your version goes on about 'Quantum Superimposition' and 'Destructive Inteference'. As opposed to 'what paradox?'. How is your version elegant? It's certainly not simple. If 'elegant' was synomymous with 'complicated', Star Trek: Voyager would be the height of elegance from technobabble alone.

Remember the KISS rule? Keep it simple.

also remember that this is almost indentical to how the computer learns from 'ghosts' of itself, so there's artistic sense in there too - the repetition of an underlying pricipal or theme.

Except the compter is only supposed to be in contact with itself for a brief period. After that, the connection between the two (the RTTP) isn't supposed to be there any more.

Now, many might ask 'why write up all these new ideas when there was a perfectly good one already' - the answer is that the 'old' RTTP theory, along with the STM, never sat quite right with me - it seemed kinda 'wrong' and then evidence began to stack up against it and it fell apart at the seams, so when Chupathingy suggested Tachyons I went all out and wrote up this new version.

Rhys, I have nothing against Tachyons. Some of my best friends are Tachyons. But the whole Paradox bit seems to be basically for it's own sake.

Hope that helps - and yeah, I really do over-think things, but I have my reasons - #1 of which is that I am pedantic and if the various pieces of LTT don't fit together elegantly in my mind then I become convinced we're wrong somehow and need to tweak it!

Cheers!

Same here in the way, but I'm not the time-travel nut you are. And the Paradox bit, to me, is just screaming "I'm in this essay because I'm mates with the editor."

[TB3]

Hmm - in my mind this is the simplest explanation - that said, what do you mean by the last bit - "mates with the editor"?

Hmm, should we open the floor and see what other people have to say?

[Cassius335 offline]

I'm suggesting that the only reason the Paradox bit got in is because you're a time-travel fan and assume that any form of time-stream interaction is automatically going to rip the universe apart without a lot of faffle about Quantum.

Is 'faffle' a word? Never mind...

To my mind, the very act of the RTTP cancels out the paradox, because during that moment, as we've already established, for a brief moment, the two computers are one and the same, exising as a one unit at one point, not two computers at different points, allowing the transfer in the first place. After the RTTP, there's no worry about how the data gets sent back because it's already been sent. From the point of view of the Supercalculator and any 'tagged' idividuals, the original events happened earlier and XANA's got that little extra towards it's next Qubit to prove it.

Hmm, should we open the floor and see what other people have to say?

Of course...

Aaaand now I'm going to bed.

[JeremieCompNerd offline]

Well, if my theory makes it progress too fast, yours most certainly does. Look at this, and try to get it just a little better this time.
My theory-add 1 ORIGINAL, JUST BUILT S.C. Your's- add 1 CURRENT, SUPED UP S.C.

MY THEORY YOUR THEORY
1 1
2 2
3 4
4 8
5 16
6 32
7 64



Get it? I'm not adding a Q-bit per say, I'm adding the original power of the super computer, before any of the return trips. So after 360 trips, you have 360 times the original supercomputers power. In your theory, we have the original supercomputer, times 2^360 after the same number of return trips. So even if you scale everything way down, and say that the original supercomputer was .05 Q-bits, your's still blows massively out of proportion WAY before mine does. Does anyone understand this yet?
You are doubling the power, I am adding 1 to it. HUGE DIFFERENCE.

By the way, I take your side on this arguement with Cassius335.
Sorry Cassius, but if you don't find a way around the grandfather paradox that works better than "because it will", then one of two things happen.
1- time travel becomes impossible, unless anything you do has NO effect on you making the trip.
2- The universe ceases to exist.
Take a pic, but I like TB3's options much better.

[TB3]

Lol - sorry guys if I'm triggering off arguments

Cassius - I honestly don't know what to say - seems we're both equally resolute in our convictions - wanna IM or something tommorrow?

CompNerd - I'll rewatch 'A Great Day' and have a think over your idea

Seeya tommorrow guys!

[Sithking Zero offline]

I'm suggesting that the only reason the Paradox bit got in is because you're a time-travel fan and assume that any form of time-stream interaction is automatically going to rip the universe apart without a lot of faffle about Quantum.

Is 'faffle' a word? Never mind...

To my mind, the very act of the RTTP cancels out the paradox, because during that moment, as we've already established, for a brief moment, the two computers are one and the same, exising as a one unit at one point, not two computers at different points, allowing the transfer in the first place. After the RTTP, there's no worry about how the data gets sent back because it's already been sent. From the point of view of the Supercalculator and any 'tagged' idividuals, the original events happened earlier and XANA's got that little extra towards it's next Qubit to prove it.

Hmm, should we open the floor and see what other people have to say?

Of course...

Aaaand now I'm going to bed.

Well, technically, the timeline that was left when the RTTP was activated is instantly destroyed because different events negate the happenings in the original timeline, but at the same time, a new timeline is created to fit the events/criteria that changed the past (Think of when Biff went back to 1985 with the almanac from Back to the Future).

However, the possibility exists that the original timeline would split off of the dimensional plane and become it's own seperate dimension after the criteria changed.

In other words, doing a Return to the Past DOES destroy the universe, but only to the point in time where the return trip stops due to its existence being negated. However, the timeline might not be destroyed, but form its own seperate pocket dimension.

[TB3]

The problem with the pocket dimension theory though is that it does not fit with CL's ethic of saving the world, if in truth you are abandoning one timeline for another where XANA has not attacked.

[Sithking Zero offline]

True. I'm just saying what the sci-fi geek in me is saying, and what I truly believe.

My belief is that every time we make a choice, or a choice is presented to the universe, it splits into all universes that could match the number of choices. And each of those worlds sprout fractal worlds of their own.

Under this idea, there would be at least two dimensions created with each RTTP: Universe where they did do it, and universe where they didn't.

Really, this doesn't matter. I was just saying earlier that technically, by overwriting reality, RTTP's do destroy at least a portion of the universe by annihilating a chunk of the timeline.

[Cassius335 offline]

Cassius - I honestly don't know what to say - seems we're both equally resolute in our convictions - wanna IM or something tommorrow?

Actually, I think I've finally figured out what's wrong with your Grandfather Paradox example. It's the wrong time-travel story. Isn't there one where a guy becomes his own grandfather?

We can talk more later, but for now I'll leave you with a link to a similar story (or, rather, it's tv.com page):

http://www.tv.com/star-trek-deep-space- ... mmary.html

Now... back to bed...

[Jazzy Josh offline]

Don't quote me on this, but that could have been "Futurama" and in this case it's traveling foreward

[mooshie offline]

actually star trek TNG had a similar thing in which a traveler from the future becomes enamored of someone from the past who then states, "I could be you great great great great great great grandmother", the only reason futurama would have it is because it was making fun of star trek or another sci - fi show, but beside that, thanks TB3 for answering my question/commentary, correct me if I'm wrong but to me that sounds as if it's not actually spinning in different directions it's just oriented differently, although relative to what I have no idea seing as how weak gravity is in reference to electrons, but if I'm completely off base feel free to ignore me

[TB3]

SOME QUOTES THAT I'VE PUT ON THE FIRST PAGE OF THE ESSAY

“What one man can imagine, other men can make real.â€

[Cassius335 offline]

Whoa. Yeah, that's awesome.

[Sithking Zero offline]

Incredible. We can only hope that the peoples at Moonscoop will like it.

[Lani offline]

I like that intro!! <s>I know I haven't been hanging out here in a while so I gotta read the other stufff too o__o</s> Haha, and if this is what we produced after 9 months then it is our baby!! Um. *shot*

Again, I like it and keep it up ;D

[JeremieCompNerd offline]

Very nice. I like the introduction. It goes well with the rest of the information you have given, and also grabs attention from miles away. Very articulate.

[Sithking Zero offline]

Plus, it showed that we're (us here at Lyokofreak) not a bunch of kids who made up big words (you mentioned that you ran this past your professors).

[TB3]

Everyone, an announcement

I FINISHED THE ESSAY!

I'll post it tommorrow for you guys to look at, but now, bed calls - I'm pooped!

[Sithking Zero offline]

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYY!!!!! I can't wait to read it!