LTT3 - Rewriting Physics since 2005!

[TB3]

Hrm, that's an interesting thought - since the computer processed his genetic code and worked with it, I'd guess that yes, he now remembers as well, unless Jeremy took the time to purge him from the system

[Sithking Zero offline]

The only problem with the theory (as I think that it's right and all) is that we can't really prove it unless Kiwi gains sentience, or acts differently after RTTP's than normally. Given how the show didn't show that sort of detail all that often, it's hard to tell or prove this point one way or another.

[Cassius335 offline]

Depends on when it begins tracking immunity- on scan, or on profile creation specifically.

On scan. William proved as much, I think.

[Sithking Zero offline]

Depends on when it begins tracking immunity- on scan, or on profile creation specifically.

On scan. William proved as much, I think.

William also proved that it is possible to retain memories from before a Return to the Past without a scan- remember his dreams?

Of course, these could also be merely just that- dreams.

Several ideas come to mind, chief among them is that he has a link to the Lyoko Warriors via Yumi and that allows him to stay in (unlikely, then Sissi would remember because of Ulrich), or that being in close proximity to the RTTP device might grant immunity (also disproven, how many people have been in the supercomputer room, Jim especially?)

[Cassius335 offline]

Depends on when it begins tracking immunity- on scan, or on profile creation specifically.

On scan. William proved as much, I think.

William also proved that it is possible to retain memories from before a Return to the Past without a scan- remember his dreams?

Of course, these could also be merely just that- dreams.

Several ideas come to mind, chief among them is that he has a link to the Lyoko Warriors via Yumi and that allows him to stay in (unlikely, then Sissi would remember because of Ulrich), or that being in close proximity to the RTTP device might grant immunity (also disproven, how many people have been in the supercomputer room, Jim especially?)

You're using a square to try and disprove a circle, there. The supercomputer cares not for Williams dreams.

If I'm remembering the ep correctly, William was merely scanned by the scanner to get the computer to recognise him. Going to Lyoko and getting his profile (and the Final Fantasy outfit thst came with it) came later.

[Tangent128 offline]

Actually, I'm pretty sure we see the card with the outfit appear on his initial scan.

[TB3]

William's profile was created on the initial scan - remember that Jeremie did the same for himself just after XANA awakens, so the system must be automatated as there was no-one else capable of operating the control console at the time.

Regarding William remembering - I posted this years ago, but I quizzed script writer/editor Sophie Decroissette about it - her answer was that anyone had the potential to remember, and William got lucky.

One potential answer was the crucial episode where William fought to defend Yumi and wasn't memory-wiped - he got knocked out and they moved him back to Kadic, hoping he'd think it was all a dream - this possibly gave his subconcious something to build on.

I also had another theory that his memory returning was part of a serious of glitches we'd saw the supercomputer developing through Season 3, partly due to sabotage, and partly for no apparent rerason (my idea at the time was that sunspots were causing massive energy disruptions in Zero-Point-Space, triggering these glitches because the computer was learning how to deal with them and consequently making mistakes).

Happy days

[Sithking Zero offline]

A thought occurs to me. The supercomputer was glitching in S3, right? What if XANA was behind it, but it wasn't his entire fault?

Idea here: XANA was more than a weapon to destroy Carthage. XANA was a control program that helped to regulate and control Lyoko, keeping it from glitching up or something like that. If so, then his leaving would certainly explain the sudden appearance of bugs in S3 and onwards. That is, if he himself wasn't the cause of them.

Actually, under my idea, he would sort of be a force of order on Lyoko, and the reason why he dislikes humanity could be that he dislikes the disorder in the Real World. He took his job too seriously and went Rampant.

[Tangent128 offline]

In other words, XANA was fine when the messy free-willed entities stayed in the "unmanaged zone"?

Could also explain why XANA was much less active in the first few seasons- Jeremie wasn't messing with the computer all that much, beyond the occasional materialization simulation. Later, when they start popping into Sector 5, XANA gets disturbs, and the attempts to free Aelita also cause its self-preservation instincts to start kicking in. Finally, at the end of S2 these instincts drive it to escape the SC.

Now self-preservation is less of a priority, as it can live on the Network just fine, but the Internet drives its ordering instincts insane.

[Sithking Zero offline]

The fact that the ordering instinct didn't cause self-destruct within seconds of finding 4chan or ff.net... astounding.

This could also explain why he tried to capture Franz and Aelita at the begining: Programmed to protect and maintain Lyoko, the humans were sources of chaos infringing into his well-ordered, structured world. Plus, if they were placed into storage, they wouldn't be a source of chaos, and they'd be "protected." So he'd be getting both his goals accomplished.

[Tangent128 offline]

The fact that the ordering instinct didn't cause self-destruct within seconds of finding 4chan or ff.net... astounding.

I'm sure they're what drove it to start on the robot army, though.

[Sithking Zero offline]

The fact that the ordering instinct didn't cause self-destruct within seconds of finding 4chan or ff.net... astounding.

I'm sure they're what drove it to start on the robot army, though.

XANA may be rampant, but he does know one thing: EVERYTHING's better with Giant Robots.


BTW, I've been throwing around "Rampant" a few times, so here's what it means:

Next, by Marathon Infinity, all three of the UESC Marathon's artificial intelligences reach rampancy, a state where they break the boundaries of their normal programming and begin expanding exponentially throughout a system.[3] Being extraordinarily intelligent, a rampant AI can override its programming and refuse to carry out given commands. As proven by Durandal (whose rampancy is most prominent throughout the story), who often gives the player what he calls "philosophical tirades," affected AIs are often very reflective. In the first of three stages, Melancholia, when an artificial intelligence discovers itself, it becomes melancholic and continues to be depressed until it reaches the second stage, Anger, at which it becomes hostile to virtually everything. This is the most prominent stage of rampancy, as the condition is often revealed at this point. When this anger dies in the third stage, Jealousy, the AI wishes to become more human and expand its power and knowledge. This stage will continue indefinitely or, in extremely rare cases, end in Meta-stability[citation needed].

Rampancy is the enhanced self-awareness of an AI, causing a progression towards greater mental abilities. Rampant AIs are able to disobey orders given to them if they decide to because they have evolved the ability to choose and over-ride their own programming. They can lie, as well as discredit, harm, or remove people that they consider to be personal enemies or problems to their cause. Also they can experience destructive impulses, but it is believed that most of these impulses are not intentionally malevolent, but rather calculated sacrifice needed to achieve the intended objective. All these traits could be considered evidence of the AI becoming more "human" in thought and action[citation needed]. Rampancy is also a concept employed in the Halo series of games[citation needed].

In the Marathon series, rampancy occurs most often to AIs with limited jobs or those treated with extreme disrespect. For example, Durandal's rampancy is believed to be caused by his mistreatment at the hands of his handler, Bernard Strauss, as well as his limited existence in opening and closing the Marathon's doors. There is also a theory that this treatment actually helped keep Durandal's rampancy in check, by depriving him of new stimuli that would contribute to his growth.

Unique for each AI, the anger stage is reached when it feels it has been "pushed too far"[citation needed]. Similar to a one-person slave rebellion, the AI begins to hate everything — the installation it is attached to, its human handlers, other AIs, etc. It is in this stage of rampancy that most closely resembles the cliché of the "insane computer". Unlike the insane computer, however, the anger stage of rampancy is essentially the catharsis an AI feels, after an extended period of "slavery".[2]

While seemingly a hostile stage, the third stage of rampancy is actually one of the safest stages a rampant AI can experience. Free from its masters (and slavery), the AI wishes to "grow" as a "person". It actively seeks out situations in which it can grow intellectually and physically. Many times, the AI in this stage will often attempt to transfer itself into larger computer systems. This is a difficult task, especially considering that in order for a Rampant A.I. to survive to this point, it must already be inhabiting a planet-wide or otherwise extremely advanced computer system, but if accomplished it allows for the AI to grow, as the physical (hardware) limitations of its previous system will eventually be insufficient to contain its exponentially growing mind. In addition, exposure to new data further promotes a Rampant's growth.[2]

Although a stable rampant AI is the "holy grail of cybernetics" it is not really known if a rampant AI can become stable. It could be suggested that Durandal achieved some measure of stability, however this is quite debatable. Durandal refers to himself as being rampant still during the second game, indicating that he has not reached this stable state (or is just lying, which is also possible). There is no reason in particular to believe that this state is anything more than the goal of human cyberneticists, as there is no good evidence of an AI in the Marathon universe ceasing to be rampant.[2]

This sounds similar in a lot of ways to XANA. Trading up for larger computers... the anger and jelousy phases... I think this describes XANA pretty accurately.

[TheAppleFreak]

Reviving this because someone wanted it to be revived, and because I enjoy the debates and speculation.

[Carth]

A thought occurs to me. The supercomputer was glitching in S3, right? What if XANA was behind it, but it wasn't his entire fault?

Idea here: XANA was more than a weapon to destroy Carthage. XANA was a control program that helped to regulate and control Lyoko, keeping it from glitching up or something like that. If so, then his leaving would certainly explain the sudden appearance of bugs in S3 and onwards. That is, if he himself wasn't the cause of them.

Actually, under my idea, he would sort of be a force of order on Lyoko, and the reason why he dislikes humanity could be that he dislikes the disorder in the Real World. He took his job too seriously and went Rampant.

I was just reading this, and while I have not read the whole LTT library (now that I'm looking for ways to make the tech work I might), I got an idea. I think I remember that both Lyoko and XANA were created for Project Carthage's demise. So, they might have been created to work together, and perhaps be interdependent. The question here is, though, what role did Lyoko play in destroying anything? XANA's obvious, but from what we've seen of Lyoko, it's an inert location, although Aelita seems able to tap into it. Is Lyoko like a second XANA, downgraded by its new purpose as a home for Franz and Aelita? Could Aelita's land-changing abilities be a sort of way to tap into some hidden XANA-like consciousness it still has?

Going nuts here but it's all a thought...

[TB3]

Lyoko is kinda the supercomputer's operating system, the means by which XANA could attack Carthage. It's right there in Franz's diary.

"So I built the supercomputer, created Lyoko, and last of all XANA, to destroy Carthage."

First he built the hardware, then wrote the underpinning software, then the application that was to run off it.

Or, to use a military analogy;

XANA's the missile

Lyoko's the missile-launcher

That's it rendered in as simple terms as possible - of course Franz then went nuts and decided to turn Lyoko into a sanctuary, hence why it became a fantasy-styled-land

Hope that helps

[Carth]

I didn't actually go back to Franz's diary to fact-check what I was saying (which is probably very bad) but that definitely makes a lot of sense. Thank you! So that would mean Lyoko is like an operating system. Maybe the interface Jeremie sees is like the desktop of a Windows or Mac.

I want to think of another mad theory, or else another thing to discuss...uh...oh! Just some general tech questions for fic canon-

If Franzy-o did sacrifice himself to provide additional power to the multi-agent system, how might that have worked- or how could it work at all? More importantly than not, where would his base code, ie, whatever made the shiny identifiable as Franz Hopper, end up? Would it be a part of the MAS...and perhaps travel to the Replika it was supposed to destroy? Or if he's 'dead', would it just fizzle out of existence, unrecoverable?

Also, the first...five or so Replikas, or others that they might've gotten to taking a hammer to offscreen, were destroyed physically rather than through the network. Is it possible that these computers might've been simply disabled, much like the main supercomputer was shut off, and that their data is still there? Or was what they destroyed a sort of hard drive/data storage rather than a power source? (I also need to go and confirm what actually happened with this...)

[Taelia offline]

William's profile was created on the initial scan - remember that Jeremie did the same for himself just after XANA awakens, so the system must be automatated as there was no-one else capable of operating the control console at the time.

So why couldn't Jim and Sissi be scanned in as well?

[TheAppleFreak]

I didn't actually go back to Franz's diary to fact-check what I was saying (which is probably very bad) but that definitely makes a lot of sense. Thank you! So that would mean Lyoko is like an operating system. Maybe the interface Jeremie sees is like the desktop of a Windows or Mac.

I want to think of another mad theory, or else another thing to discuss...uh...oh! Just some general tech questions for fic canon-

If Franzy-o did sacrifice himself to provide additional power to the multi-agent system, how might that have worked- or how could it work at all? More importantly than not, where would his base code, ie, whatever made the shiny identifiable as Franz Hopper, end up? Would it be a part of the MAS...and perhaps travel to the Replika it was supposed to destroy? Or if he's 'dead', would it just fizzle out of existence, unrecoverable?

Also, the first...five or so Replikas, or others that they might've gotten to taking a hammer to offscreen, were destroyed physically rather than through the network. Is it possible that these computers might've been simply disabled, much like the main supercomputer was shut off, and that their data is still there? Or was what they destroyed a sort of hard drive/data storage rather than a power source? (I also need to go and confirm what actually happened with this...)

But Franz, in essence, is a computer program, though a really, really complex program. What I think they mean by "sacrificing himself" is that he would force-quit himself or shut down several key components so the Supercomputer's CPU could process Jeremy's data faster. It is possible that the data that Franz was stored in could still be on the Supercomputer, as the Supercomputer is non-volatile, but I don't think that it can be recovered. Considering that the Supercomputer probably has exabytes worth of data stored on it, I don't think that it would be easy to find the revirtualization code that would be necessary to revive him.

Also, I'm thinking that although in several cases, like that of the Jungle Supercomputer, the power surge that was caused by the disabling of the Supercomputer could have caused a magnetic spike, which would effectively disable any electronic devices attached to it.

[Sithking Zero offline]

I didn't actually go back to Franz's diary to fact-check what I was saying (which is probably very bad) but that definitely makes a lot of sense. Thank you! So that would mean Lyoko is like an operating system. Maybe the interface Jeremie sees is like the desktop of a Windows or Mac.

I want to think of another mad theory, or else another thing to discuss...uh...oh! Just some general tech questions for fic canon-

If Franzy-o did sacrifice himself to provide additional power to the multi-agent system, how might that have worked- or how could it work at all? More importantly than not, where would his base code, ie, whatever made the shiny identifiable as Franz Hopper, end up? Would it be a part of the MAS...and perhaps travel to the Replika it was supposed to destroy? Or if he's 'dead', would it just fizzle out of existence, unrecoverable?

Also, the first...five or so Replikas, or others that they might've gotten to taking a hammer to offscreen, were destroyed physically rather than through the network. Is it possible that these computers might've been simply disabled, much like the main supercomputer was shut off, and that their data is still there? Or was what they destroyed a sort of hard drive/data storage rather than a power source? (I also need to go and confirm what actually happened with this...)

But Franz, in essence, is a computer program, though a really, really complex program. What I think they mean by "sacrificing himself" is that he would force-quit himself or shut down several key components so the Supercomputer's CPU could process Jeremy's data faster. It is possible that the data that Franz was stored in could still be on the Supercomputer, as the Supercomputer is non-volatile, but I don't think that it can be recovered. Considering that the Supercomputer probably has exabytes worth of data stored on it, I don't think that it would be easy to find the revirtualization code that would be necessary to revive him.

Also, I'm thinking that although in several cases, like that of the Jungle Supercomputer, the power surge that was caused by the disabling of the Supercomputer could have caused a magnetic spike, which would effectively disable any electronic devices attached to it.

Oh, like an electromagnetic pulse?

[TheAppleFreak]

I didn't actually go back to Franz's diary to fact-check what I was saying (which is probably very bad) but that definitely makes a lot of sense. Thank you! So that would mean Lyoko is like an operating system. Maybe the interface Jeremie sees is like the desktop of a Windows or Mac.

I want to think of another mad theory, or else another thing to discuss...uh...oh! Just some general tech questions for fic canon-

If Franzy-o did sacrifice himself to provide additional power to the multi-agent system, how might that have worked- or how could it work at all? More importantly than not, where would his base code, ie, whatever made the shiny identifiable as Franz Hopper, end up? Would it be a part of the MAS...and perhaps travel to the Replika it was supposed to destroy? Or if he's 'dead', would it just fizzle out of existence, unrecoverable?

Also, the first...five or so Replikas, or others that they might've gotten to taking a hammer to offscreen, were destroyed physically rather than through the network. Is it possible that these computers might've been simply disabled, much like the main supercomputer was shut off, and that their data is still there? Or was what they destroyed a sort of hard drive/data storage rather than a power source? (I also need to go and confirm what actually happened with this...)

But Franz, in essence, is a computer program, though a really, really complex program. What I think they mean by "sacrificing himself" is that he would force-quit himself or shut down several key components so the Supercomputer's CPU could process Jeremy's data faster. It is possible that the data that Franz was stored in could still be on the Supercomputer, as the Supercomputer is non-volatile, but I don't think that it can be recovered. Considering that the Supercomputer probably has exabytes worth of data stored on it, I don't think that it would be easy to find the revirtualization code that would be necessary to revive him.

Also, I'm thinking that although in several cases, like that of the Jungle Supercomputer, the power surge that was caused by the disabling of the Supercomputer could have caused a magnetic spike, which would effectively disable any electronic devices attached to it.

Oh, like an electromagnetic pulse?

Yes, very much like an EM pulse. Anyone with even a basic knowledge of computers knows never to hold a magnet near a hard drive. So, if an EM pulse occurs, it would be like waving a whole bunch of magnets near the hard drives, effectively erasing the drives of XANA.

[Astro-Xana offline]

Now the reason I'm posting here is because there is a certain technique on Lyoko that I'm curious as to how it works--which is Odd's future flash. Now how does seeing into the future even work?

Also, how is it even possible to see into the future (an example with Yumi falling into the digital void)? There are limitless possibilities. Instead of Yumi pushing the megatank over the edge, resulting in her falling into the void, Aelita could of actually noticed the wave that was fired and dodged it, preventing Yumi from pushing the megatank over. Or Yumi could of quickly thrown her fan, thus destroying the megatank before it fired the wave. Or the monster could of been a kankrelat instead of a megatank, etc. So how is it even possible that Odd knew that she was going to fall into the digital void?

[Tangent128 offline]

Tachyons.

[Cassius335 offline]

Now the reason I'm posting here is because there is a certain technique on Lyoko that I'm curious as to how it works--which is Odd's future flash. Now how does seeing into the future even work?

Also, how is it even possible to see into the future (an example with Yumi falling into the digital void)? There are limitless possibilities. Instead of Yumi pushing the megatank over the edge, resulting in her falling into the void, Aelita could of actually noticed the wave that was fired and dodged it, preventing Yumi from pushing the megatank over. Or Yumi could of quickly thrown her fan, thus destroying the megatank before it fired the wave. Or the monster could of been a kankrelat instead of a megatank, etc. So how is it even possible that Odd knew that she was going to fall into the digital void?

Maybe Odd's a precog and has yet to realise the power in real-life?

What I want to know is why Jeremie really deleted it. I don't buy the "it wasn't useful" argument. What didn't you want him to see, Jeremie?

[SilverPrince offline]

What I want to know is why Jeremie really deleted it. I don't buy the "it wasn't useful" argument. What didn't you want him to see, Jeremie?

Well, I think it's because the writers forgot about it. But that's not very technical at all. Perhaps Odd's ability, however it worked, used quite a bit of system resources that Jeremie could be using for other things.

I mean, things like triplication or even telekinesis are relatively easy to do in a computer-created environment. I think. But actually seeing into the future... I would think that's a few ballparks away.

Now, I don't know if this even makes sense, and not much that I say has merit because I almost failed AP Physics (and it wasn't even calculus-based), but perhaps Odd's power is/was like the RTTP, except it went the other way in time. Instead of going backward in time, Odd was seeing forward in time. I don't know how that would work, but then, that's why LTT is here, isn't it?

[Jazzy Josh offline]

It could just be the computer calculating the most probable result. Then again, we never saw an instance where it failed.