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General original series discussion (Seasons 1-4)

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Postby SamBlob » Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:11 pm

HvonM wrote:
SamBlob wrote:
Ulrich Stern wrote: Another idea is that Xana (who possesed Mr. Delmas, and showed commpassion by giving the coat---compassion is a specifically human trait, not a programmed computer) who ever he was, was scanned in at a time where a bug in the program or a virus-sabotage, occured.


That wasn't compassion, that was expedience. Odd explained to XANA that if he wanted live hostages (and the fact that they were still living suggested this) then he had better find a way to keep Yumi alive in the cold.


Which episode did that happen in?


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Postby HvonM » Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:14 pm

Thanks. I wasn't able to catch that one. Hopefully I can get a summary...
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Postby Ulrich Stern » Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:55 pm

SamBlob wrote:
Ulrich Stern wrote:.......


That wasn't compassion, that was expedienc......


No I beg to differ....there was a very certain expression in Mr. D's eyes ....the kind of compassion....there would have been a angered look otherwise!


SamBlob wrote:
Ulrich Stern wrote: .....


I still prefer Season One. It seems fresher, not quite as forced.


Intresting view. I thought the opposite since this season fits together as a whole much better than last. In season one...you could have skipped an episode or two and not missed anything...but in Season 2 there is a definate building of plot from episode to episode.

I would say the episodes seem a bit rushed...for example group members having correct epiphanies of what XANA is up to or how things happened....not just Jeremy but other "slower" thinkers on the crew. Other times the just flat out tell us information that would take a long time to animate and figure out ourselves! They do that in almost every episode.

And still I don't understand why Aelita get the deer in the head lights look when the Schizozoa shows up. SHE NEVER JUST RUNS AWAY!!!!
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Postby Mewberries151 » Sat Oct 08, 2005 11:02 pm

Ulrich Stern wrote:
SamBlob wrote:
Ulrich Stern wrote:.......


That wasn't compassion, that was expedienc......


No I beg to differ....there was a very certain expression in Mr. D's eyes ....the kind of compassion....there would have been a angered look otherwise!


Perhaps that was the Principal's own way of showing pity though. Jeremie's been able to fight XANA's control ("Attack of the Zombies") and do things of his own will. Perhaps the Principal, since XANA was instructing him to do something for the better of Yumi and Odd's health, was trying to send a silent apology for anything he might do under XANA's control. It's a long shot theory but...the words "compassion" and "XANA" just don't seem to work well in the same sentence. ^^;
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Postby Doggiegal » Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:00 am

Ulrich Stern wrote:And still I don't understand why Aelita get the deer in the head lights look when the Schizozoa shows up. SHE NEVER JUST RUNS AWAY!!!!


o.O You sound just like my brother...he always yells at Aelita to run and then asks me why she doesn't...
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Postby SamBlob » Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:18 am

Ulrich Stern wrote:
SamBlob wrote:
Ulrich Stern wrote:.......


That wasn't compassion, that was expedience...


No I beg to differ....there was a very certain expression in Mr. D's eyes ....the kind of compassion....there would have been a angered look otherwise!


I saw the look in his eyes. It spoke of frustration to me, as in "Oh, all *right!* :cussout: "


Ulrich Stern wrote:
SamBlob wrote:I still prefer Season One. It seems fresher, not quite as forced.


Intresting view. I thought the opposite since this season fits together as a whole much better than last. In season one...you could have skipped an episode or two and not missed anything...but in Season 2 there is a definate building of plot from episode to episode.


And as such it is being made to fit a mould. In Season One, Jeremy was slowly getting closer to materialization and life went on otherwise. This season seems to diverge into a lot of side plots leading nowhere.

But then again I don't like soap operas, and CL seems to be turning more into one.

Ulrich Stern wrote: I would say the episodes seem a bit rushed...for example group members having correct epiphanies of what XANA is up to or how things happened....not just Jeremy but other "slower" thinkers on the crew. Other times the just flat out tell us information that would take a long time to animate and figure out ourselves! They do that in almost every episode.


Except, of course, when XANA introduces a twist into their love lives. Then they seem to forget that he exists and that he is trying to mess with them. He has used that tactic too often for them to just forget it and get trapped by it EVERY TIME!

Ulrich Stern wrote: And still I don't understand why Aelita get the deer in the head lights look when the Schizozoa shows up. SHE NEVER JUST RUNS AWAY!!!!


Maybe it has a paralyzing effect on her every time she sees it? Maybe it's supposed to?
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Postby Ulrich Stern » Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:07 pm

Mewberries151 wrote:Perhaps that was the Principal's own way of showing pity though. Jeremie's been able to fight XANA's control ("Attack of the Zombies") and do things of his own will. Perhaps the Principal, since XANA was instructing him to do something for the better of Yumi and Odd's health, was trying to send a silent apology for anything he might do under XANA's control. It's a long shot theory but...the words "compassion" and "XANA" just don't seem to work well in the same sentence. ^^;


Good thoughts, but, I don't think so...no one else other than Jeremy has been able to do any good under XANA's control. Just wait and see at the end of the season or plot....We'll all find out some shocking things we never though would have been possible in the story and yet it will all make so much sense. Those two words may not seem to mix now...but hind sight is, will be, 20/20.
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Postby SamBlob » Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:31 pm

Ulrich Stern wrote: ...no one else other than Jeremy has been able to do any good under XANA's control.


Jeremy was not able to do any good under XANA's direct possession. He was able to resist the zombie infection for a while, though.
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Postby Lotho » Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:19 pm

Mewberries151 wrote:
Ulrich Stern wrote:
SamBlob wrote:
Ulrich Stern wrote:.......


That wasn't compassion, that was expedienc......


No I beg to differ....there was a very certain expression in Mr. D's eyes ....the kind of compassion....there would have been a angered look otherwise!


Perhaps that was the Principal's own way of showing pity though. Jeremie's been able to fight XANA's control ("Attack of the Zombies") and do things of his own will. Perhaps the Principal, since XANA was instructing him to do something for the better of Yumi and Odd's health, was trying to send a silent apology for anything he might do under XANA's control. It's a long shot theory but...the words "compassion" and "XANA" just don't seem to work well in the same sentence. ^^;


http://media.putfile.com/cold36

I think it looks more like "Oh I forgot about that"
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Postby Doggiegal » Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:46 pm

LothoFoxburr wrote:
Mewberries151 wrote:
Ulrich Stern wrote:
SamBlob wrote:
Ulrich Stern wrote:.......


That wasn't compassion, that was expedienc......


No I beg to differ....there was a very certain expression in Mr. D's eyes ....the kind of compassion....there would have been a angered look otherwise!


Perhaps that was the Principal's own way of showing pity though. Jeremie's been able to fight XANA's control ("Attack of the Zombies") and do things of his own will. Perhaps the Principal, since XANA was instructing him to do something for the better of Yumi and Odd's health, was trying to send a silent apology for anything he might do under XANA's control. It's a long shot theory but...the words "compassion" and "XANA" just don't seem to work well in the same sentence. ^^;


http://media.putfile.com/cold36

I think it looks more like "Oh I forgot about that"


They might have been talking about this look.
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Postby Lotho » Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:30 pm

Maybe, but I don't think so. An artist fluke if anything.
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Postby Ulrich Stern » Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:51 pm

SamBlob wrote:Jeremy was not able to do any good under XANA's direct possession. He was able to resist the zombie infection for a while, though.


Good point. I just assumed that since the infection was from XANA getting into Kiwi and thus spreading himself through contagion...that it WAS a direct possession. That was why I used it as my thesis. However, if that was true, then why couldn't Odd resist, being stronger against XANA attacks?
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Postby Mewberries151 » Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:55 pm

I think it also might be the way his mustache is drawn that's messing with our perception of that look. We can't see what line the principal's mouth is set in due to his mustache covering it. And since his mustache naturally is combs down, it looks like a sympathetic expression. Also...we're too far away to see the XANA eye's that have replaced his pupils, which makes him look not as possessed and more human. It probably is an artistic fluke...or more of a character design fluke on the part of the principal.

Based on motives alone, I'm going to go with the "expedience" reasoning. XANA's a super computer, so he thinks like a computer...meaning he'll only act out of logic. Emotions (particularly compassion) have always been deemed illogical, therefore XANA would never bother with them unless he was using his opponents emotions against them, like in "XANA's Kiss" for example.

Ulrich Stern wrote:
SamBlob wrote:Jeremy was not able to do any good under XANA's direct possession. He was able to resist the zombie infection for a while, though.


Good point. I just assumed that since the infection was from XANA getting into Kiwi and thus spreading himself through contagion...that it WAS a direct possession. That was why I used it as my thesis. However, if that was true, then why couldn't Odd resist, being stronger against XANA attacks?


Odd didn't know what would happen if Kiwi bit him. Jeremie did, and the anticipation of it might have allowed him to fight it better. Plus, Jeremie could still hear Aelita talking to him. Love can be such a powerful motivator. :D
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Postby DL » Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:08 pm

personally I think it had to do with will power and Jeremy is way more stubborn than Odd

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Postby Ulrich Stern » Sun Oct 09, 2005 10:51 pm

Mewberries151 wrote:.....I think it also might be the way his mustache is drawn that's messing with our perception of that look. We can't see what line the principal's mouth is set in due to his mustache covering it. And since his mustache naturally is combs down, it looks like a sympathetic expression. ...........


Yes, however, I don't recall ever seeing Mr. D with that sort of look anywhere else in this season or before.

Mewberries151 wrote:XANA's a super computer, so he thinks like a computer...meaning he'll only act out of logic. ......


I don't think XANA is the super computer...because he doesn't have all access to it... and for other reasons outside of Lyoko. [a whole other topic...] XANA obviously is sentient...acting out of conscious motive rather than logic and straying from logic quite often. Schemeing and planning requires much more than logical progression.


Mewberries151 wrote:Odd didn't know what would happen if Kiwi bit him. ....... Love can be such a powerful motivator. :D


But Odd did know what had happened once biten....because he exclaimed in a breath..."XANA" He's a fighter and would have.


All in all I think some of these ideas we have are a bit skewed because we are going into so much detail than the writers originaly anticipated...or cared to dig into for that matter! ;) What I mean by that is ...it's only a cartoon and it can only be real to a point. They do a good job of covering their bases but...not always. Jeremy and not Odd, I bet is purely for for continuity of the rest of story and for climax building.
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Postby Mewberries151 » Sun Oct 09, 2005 11:27 pm

Ulrich Stern wrote:
Mewberries151 wrote:.....I think it also might be the way his mustache is drawn that's messing with our perception of that look. We can't see what line the principal's mouth is set in due to his mustache covering it. And since his mustache naturally is combs down, it looks like a sympathetic expression. ...........


Yes, however, I don't recall ever seeing Mr. D with that sort of look anywhere else in this season or before.


It's alot more than just the look that's factoring into this though. There's body language, lighting, even the angle at which we're seeing the look from. It's all factoring into our perception of it being "sympathetic". Either way, I still think it was a neutral look, if it could even be called that, which appeared to be something it wasn't due to the character's design. If I can find a few screenshots of the principal in a neutral setting, I'll link them up.

Ulrich Stern wrote:
Mewberries151 wrote:XANA's a super computer, so he thinks like a computer...meaning he'll only act out of logic. ......


I don't think XANA is the super computer...because he doesn't have all access to it... and for other reasons outside of Lyoko. [a whole other topic...] XANA obviously is sentient...acting out of conscious motive rather than logic and straying from logic quite often. Schemeing and planning requires much more than logical progression.


Yes, but one can be sentient and still adhere to strict logical patterns of thought. Dr. Spock was clearly a sentient being yet adhered to strict codes of logic. No emotions being one, as emotions were deemed illogical. But I digress.

XANA is the super computer, however. That information comes directly from CL.com. XANA was infected with a virus that made him malevolent towards Earth. The fact that he doesn't have access to programs like the scanners and Team Lyoko's profiles may be due to an encrypted fail safe that keeps the virus from messing with it. Or perhaps Jeremie has created his own sort of fire wall to keep XANA's virus out of those programs.
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Postby Lyn » Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:28 am

Ok... let me think. XANA is the super computer, but he’s smarter than he used to be. He’s been in the real world a lot more lately. That means he’s seen humans and observed how the act, if unintentionally. He’s probably had time to think about emotions. Even if he deems them illogical, he’s thought about how they can affect humans and how to use them against the Lyoko team. He saw that, in theory, emotions could be helpful to him. Although even if he knows about emotions, I think they’ll still be illogical to him. I doubt XANA will show any emotions, unless it will be helpful to him directly to do so (Particularly when he's possessing someone. Wouldn't you be suspicious if your best friend suddenly stop showing any emotions at all?).

And personally, I think the look on Mr. Delmas’ face says ‘I hope that wasn’t a mistake…’ Meaning, he hopes giving Yumi the jacket won’t be a problem he can’t tackle in the future, like letting them escape or something… (I don’t know how giving someone a jacket could let them escape, but that’s my answer. :D) But that’s just me.

This is jumping back a little, but I wonder why XANA only possess' people now. I'm going to assume he's trying to break the group up and have less people in Lyoko to protect Aelita from the Schizozoa. He could still do something big and destructive, in theory. As I recall, there were several season one episodes that forced one or more of the team members to stay on Earth to protect the general population. I think he could have a mass destruction plan that would work almost as well. Unless he's got a different idea about possessing people...

In "Attack of the Zombies", I agree, Odd probably didn't know Kiwi was under XANA's possession until it was too late, and once he did he had no way of knowing how this Zombie transformation would happen. Also it's possible that being attacked by Kiwi is more... powerful? than being attacked by a zombie. If Jeremie was attacked by a zombie, that could explain why he was able to fight it longer. Though I can't remember if Jeremie was bitten by Kiwi or a Zombie-person, so this might be an incorrect theory.
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Postby DeadViolet » Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:33 am

not much has changed in my eyes...
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Postby Mewberries151 » Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:41 pm

Lyn wrote:In "Attack of the Zombies", I agree, Odd probably didn't know Kiwi was under XANA's possession until it was too late, and once he did he had no way of knowing how this Zombie transformation would happen. Also it's possible that being attacked by Kiwi is more... powerful? than being attacked by a zombie. If Jeremie was attacked by a zombie, that could explain why he was able to fight it longer. Though I can't remember if Jeremie was bitten by Kiwi or a Zombie-person, so this might be an incorrect theory.


Jeremie was bitten by Kiwi. He gives a quick yelp of "Ow" and the camera changes to a shot of XANAKiwi sitting near Jeremie's exposed ankle ("See Jeremie, this is what happens when you wear Capris!!!"

And good point! Odd didn't know that being bitten by Kiwi would turn him into a zombie. He only knew, before changing, that Kiwi was possessed by XANA. Exactly what Kiwi could do under XANA's possession all three of them found out much too late, Odd most of all. Kudos to whoever tied him up though. They did it "strait-jacket" style. XD
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Postby Ulrich Stern » Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:00 pm

Mewberries151 wrote:...a neutral look...


I think your right.

Oh and Spock showed emotions when he cried...I think it was the movie where he died. Both he and Kirk shed a tear...as he did the illogical and gave his life for the many....but I digress too. ;)
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Postby Little Vili » Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:15 pm

They did it "strait-jacket" style


and you know this how.....lol, jk.
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Postby Skysong » Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:42 pm

Maybe they're just using this season to concentrate more on character development... either that or they're trying to lull us into a false sense of security and hit us with something *really* huge at the end of the season...

Or maybe they just want to make more complex plots than the "OMG! XANA's gonna destroy the world!" bits of season one and use less of the same animation EVERY EPISODE.
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Postby Mewberries151 » Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:08 pm

Little Vili wrote:
They did it "strait-jacket" style


and you know this how.....lol, jk.


:D *evil laughs* ^_^

Skysong wrote:Maybe they're just using this season to concentrate more on character development... either that or they're trying to lull us into a false sense of security and hit us with something *really* huge at the end of the season...


Ooo!!! I totally am going to agree with the latter there!!! XANA's all about false senses of security! Plus I want something really big at the end too! Although hopefully it won't come in the form of another rabid teddy bear. ^^; You don't think he'd go for Yumi's Totoro plush would he? ;)
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Postby SamBlob » Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:38 pm

It has suddenly occurred to me that, with all the improvements in the animation and such, I have so far not seen a scene in Season 2 as compelling and captivating as the one in "Killer Music" after the ambulance has left and the Principal has walked away, where Yumi is alone in front of the school, looking desperate yet determined, with her hair blowing in the wind and a cloud's shadow passing over her...
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Postby Ulrich Stern » Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:22 pm

In fact when they have the chance there is always a "fade to black."
Now that I'm on the topic...it seem weird that in some spots Cartoon Network seems to have post-edited their own breaks in the show to stick in the three commercial breaks. Some of them are very bad spots...taking a timeout from the story in wierd places. Like in Ultimatum when Sissi asks about her father and Odd start's to reply about playing outside with Ulrich, but it fades to black and then a commercial before he finishes. I believe the original commercial breaks where supposed to be when we see the Individual Profile shot with their name. (ex. Ulrich slashing his digital katana and then his name pops into place..with a sound byte of the theme song)
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