LTT3 - Rewriting Physics since 2005!

[Astro-Xana offline]

Here's an interesting question. What if Xana modified the gravity on Lyoko like he did in "Zero Gravity Zone"? If Team Lyoko were to be in a certain sector and there was zero gravity and they all went towards the virtual sky, would that devirtualize them like normal, would they keep going and going and never get devirtualized, or would they completely disappear just like if they were to fall into the digital sea?

[Sithking Zero offline]

Well, first off, (and this is just a minor little thing), XANA didn't manipulate the gravity. He merely manipulated earth's magnetic field and the natural ammounts of iron and magnetic substances in objects and people.

Second off, good question. I'm not really sure. I think, based on the holomap, that the digital Sea is all around Lyokospace, but I'm not sure, as I said.

[TB3]

Here's an interesting question. What if Xana modified the gravity on Lyoko like he did in "Zero Gravity Zone"? If Team Lyoko were to be in a certain sector and there was zero gravity and they all went towards the virtual sky, would that devirtualize them like normal, would they keep going and going and never get devirtualized, or would they completely disappear just like if they were to fall into the digital sea?

Well unlike Earth, gravity on Lyoko is a set of programmed properties as opposed to a force resulting from standing on a big ol' chunk of rock 10,000 miles in diameter.

Look at a picture of Lyoko - the sectors are all at different angles to each other and thus gravity in each works in a different way - or consider the sector 5 elevator - as it orbits the inside of the sphere at times you should be upside down, but instead gravity remains a constant.

And remember, XANA did muck with Lyoko's gravity once when Yumi and Odd got switched - in that case it was true zero-gravity where they just floated in space.

[JeremyHopper offline]

Like TB3 said, if it was real zero gravity then you would just float in space, but I think the question we want answered here is what about negative gravity?

Like Sithking Zero pointed out, the holomap seems to show that the digital sea is all around each sector. But, if you get a good look from under the desert region for example, you can see what looks like an ocean and that's supposed to be the digital sea. You don't see this ocean go vertical and then upside down to make the roof of lyoko though.

The best way for me to interprate what would happen would be like in a video game. I play Star Wars Jedi Knight II, and there's a cheat called "noclip". You can basically fly through walls and players and you can ALSO go through the boundries of the 3d map itself. Then, since there's no graphical texture to the nothingness outside the level, it just kinda does a feedback. But if you turn around and look back at the map you were just in, you can still see it. I like to then press "noclip" again, and since there's no floor you just kinda fall. I've let this sit for a while and no matter how long I let it fall you go FOREVER. There's no error or anything. So maybe if there was negative gravity they would fall up forever.

Something that might apply even more to Lyoko would be this: in the game I mentioned above you can literally set the gravity value to -800, the opposite of normal gravity in the game (800), and then you'll fly up! And in a map with just a sky, you'll hit a map barrier that the creators of the map make so you don't fall up forever. Maybe Lyoko has one of these?

Then I had this older game (on DOS) called Commander Keen, and it also had a noclip feature. If you fly up, it'll say you died once you've hit the level barriers. It's like the digital sea but it says you got hit by lava. ...lava...in the sky... Same story if you fly downward. Another way to think of it is what happens if you go beyond the barrier of the universe in reality? The other option is that they just devirtualize automatically. Not because of death but because of protocol.

[Tangent128 offline]

A question I feel is related is: Do all the sectors really exist in the same space? Sure, the holomap shows them all together, but that doesn't mean they really are. For another video game analogy, all the areas in Hyrule are shown together on the game map (granted, every game shows them in different places, but that's besides the point), but the areas are all separate- no matter how good your skills are, you can't shoot an arrow from Death Mountain down to Kakariko Village, because Kakarikio Village doesn't exist in the same space- the game loads it when you exit Death Mountain. If Lyoko works the same way, I have no idea what falling up would do. (Though I doubt there'd be an invisible safety barrier- my priority would have been to use such a barrier to protect against the more probable danger of the Sea.)
If, on the other hand, all the sectors coexist in the same space like the real world does, then gravity likely flows in a circle, so reverse gravity would cause you to fall up into the above sector's Digital Sea, raising the questiion: is it just crossing the surface that is dangerous, or is it a three-dimensional danger?

[JeremyHopper offline]

I see what you mean about the sectors being connected (I like video game analogies), but at times in the show sometimes Aelita might be in the mountain region and then Ulrich and Odd might be in the desert region at the same time. If your idea was true, then the supercomputer would have to load each region for the kids to be in seperately.

It's like turning on a light bulb, that initial surge of power it needs is larger than the power needed to sustain it at first. But if you watch mythbusters you'll know that when they tested if leaving a lightbulb on all the time is better than turning it off a lot because of the surge it needs to switch it back on, then you'll know they found that the most effecient way is to turn it off when not needed. The way the supercomputer handles it all depends if Franz Hopper had power or efficiency in mind.

I'm pretty sure that the sectors all exist in the same space with their own seperate sub-spaces inside the big space. The only way to traverse these sub-spaces is to do that thing Aelita does through the towers. So I would say that each region is independent of each other completely.

BTW, we've been calling these theories "Hopperian Physics" or whatever, I forget, but Franz only worked on a small bit of Lyoko. If I remember correctly, he designed the OS for Lyoko and that was his job given by the Military. He later built the other 4 regions, but that's about it. He once said he had just found out about a new feature, returning to the past, which shows that he didn't learn about any aspects of the supercomputer besides those that had to do with his areas of expertise. I bet 90% of the things in that supercomputer he didn't know squat about.

[Tangent128 offline]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the sectors are loaded and unloaded- the supercomputer almost certainly has enough memory to run them all at once; I was just asking if they were physically connected. If I read you right, you say that they aren't connected. I mostly agree, though I'm trying to figure out the nature of the Carthage/Tower data streams. I'm pretty sure that they don't correspond directly to places in Lyoko, though- if Ulrich had cut the wires, you wouldn't see the flying digits inside. Continuing the videogame analogy, it could be like those "portal" effects, where different spaces (or far points in the same space) are made to appear connected through clever programming- the space below the Tower's platforms is different from the space outside the Tower (a sort of TARDIS effect?).

[JeremyHopper offline]

I wasn't putting forward an opinion, I was simply stating possible facts. If you wanted my opinion I would say that the regions are connected, through the tower's data streams. And I don't watch Doctor Who so I wouldn't know what you mean by TARDIS effect.

Furthurmore, in video games, nothing is really connected it just appears to be. A virtual tree is no more connected to the ground than a portal is to it's ending location. BTW, what's the reason for you wanting to know if the regions connected? You asked if they are physically connected, but nothing there is physically connected only virtually connected, and if you mean virtually connected then all of Lyoko is virtually connected. If they appear to be connected (which they do because Aelita falls/flys from one region to another through the towers), then I don't think it matters if they totally are or partially are not. In my opinion.

[Rycr offline]

Well, take a look at towers in the desert region, in particular. In some episodes, you can clearly see nothing beneath the tower's plateau, yet when you go inside, there's a massive pit below. I don't know how that works, especially since the inside of the tower is definitely in the same space as the outside, as you can clearly see during the sector deletion episodes of season 3. The question is, WHERE exactly are the tunnels that connect the way towers?

Personally, I think the regions of Lyoko are all connected into one gigantic virtual structure. It requires a lot of memory to sustain such a massive rendering, but this IS the supercomputer that we're talking about. If it can swap timelines, it can surely render something like Lyoko as one gigantic structure.

Gravity does work very strangely on Lyoko. It pulls you around in a circle, as evidenced by the elevator in Carthage and the orientation of the structures. If the digital sea didn't exist and you fell from the desert sector, you'd probably either land in the ice sector, or miss it and fall to one of the other sectors. It would be weird if you missed three of the sectors and fell right back onto the desert sector, huh?

[Rudger offline]

He once said he had just found out about a new feature, returning to the past, which shows that he didn't learn about any aspects of the supercomputer besides those that had to do with his areas of expertise. I bet 90% of the things in that supercomputer he didn't know squat about.

I see where you're coming from with this, but I beleive that it was explained that the RTTP was actually a side effect of Hoppers use of Exertanium nanotubes on the structure of the supercomputer which captured Tachyons into sublight speeds. When released, these Tachyons once again sped off past the speed of light and back in time, getting caught by the supercomputer in the past. If I remeber right, there was a theory that he found a way to encode the tachyons in a way the supercomputer could read and therfore make the necesary changes to stop XANA's attack, thusly changing the timeline. I'll have to read through the LTT threads again, but I'm almost positive that this is the case.

[Cassius335 offline]

If I remeber right, there was a theory that he found a way to encode the tachyons in a way the supercomputer could read and therfore make the necesary changes to stop XANA's attack, thusly changing the timeline. I'll have to read through the LTT threads again, but I'm almost positive that this is the case.

Except a) the RTTP just reverses time, it can't stop XANA by itself.

and b) There were XANA attacks then? What the hell was Franz doing bringing Aelita to Lyoko if XANA was already an enemy?

[JeremyHopper offline]

Okay, now I remember.

If I remeber right, there was a theory that he found a way to encode the tachyons in a way the supercomputer could read and therfore make the necesary changes to stop XANA's attack, thusly changing the timeline. I'll have to read through the LTT threads again, but I'm almost positive that this is the case.

Except a) the RTTP just reverses time, it can't stop XANA by itself.

and b) There were XANA attacks then? What the hell was Franz doing bringing Aelita to Lyoko if XANA was already an enemy?

Seriously, Franz didn't have it all together.

[TB3]

Okay, now I remember.

If I remeber right, there was a theory that he found a way to encode the tachyons in a way the supercomputer could read and therfore make the necesary changes to stop XANA's attack, thusly changing the timeline. I'll have to read through the LTT threads again, but I'm almost positive that this is the case.

Except a) the RTTP just reverses time, it can't stop XANA by itself.

and b) There were XANA attacks then? What the hell was Franz doing bringing Aelita to Lyoko if XANA was already an enemy?

Seriously, Franz didn't have it all together.

That's not what the director told me.

Look guys - we don't know the full story OK, but there are two main arguments about Franz:

1: He only did Lyoko's software, and the tech was designed by someone else.

2: He designed the tech and then learnt how to program.

The second one is the one LTT has run with - we know Franz built the computer, therefore he must have had a firm hand on the technology, implying intimate knowledge.

Also, when talking with Jerome he implied our theories were right, that Franz designed this technology and then rebelled when Project Carthage tried to weaponise it.

Hence, 'Hopperian Physics'.

As for Lyoko, we know it exists all the time - i.e. all five sectors at once - the recent videos released with the toys showing the kids training simultaneously in multiple sectors proves this. As pointed out, this IS the supercomputer - it's power is unquestionable.

On other notes...

I am getting very frustrated with Wikipedia - every time I tweak an article that's quoting misinformation someone changes it back - I spent a long time modifying the article on Carthage explaining the difference between it and Project Carthage, yet the powers that be have altered it back to saying that Carthage (the sector) is the representation/manifestation of Project Carthage!

Earlier today I was tweaking the article on the RTTP, explaining the Qubit Myth (that the computer gains a Qubit with each RTTP which we know isn't true) - I bet that in a few days some poor soul will have changed it back.

Even the info I gained in interviews with the staff gets wiped - I mean if you can't trust info from THAT source what can you?

(sigh)

Very, very maddening!

[Tangent128 offline]

I wasn't putting forward an opinion, I was simply stating possible facts. If you wanted my opinion I would say that the regions are connected, through the tower's data streams. And I don't watch Doctor Who so I wouldn't know what you mean by TARDIS effect.

Furthurmore, in video games, nothing is really connected it just appears to be. A virtual tree is no more connected to the ground than a portal is to it's ending location. BTW, what's the reason for you wanting to know if the regions connected? You asked if they are physically connected, but nothing there is physically connected only virtually connected, and if you mean virtually connected then all of Lyoko is virtually connected. If they appear to be connected (which they do because Aelita falls/flys from one region to another through the towers), then I don't think it matters if they totally are or partially are not. In my opinion.

Well, by "physically connected," I meant whether the sectors existed in the same space / coordinate system. In other words, if there was no sea and you fell, would you land on another sector, or fall forever? In more words, Are the sectors in the same or different memory locations in the SC?

[JeremyHopper offline]

I would say it's all in one place. And TB3, it's been so long since I've watched Code Lyoko (never seems to be on when I want to watch) that I forgot Franz designed the hardware. I thought he designed the software, and I forgot that he was one of the main scientists. And what I meant about Franz not having it all together is that sometimes he didn't think things through and they turned out badly.

[TB3]

Lol, no worries JH

And what I meant about Franz not having it all together is that sometimes he didn't think things through and they turned out badly.

True, true - three words, Multi, Agent, System

[JeremyHopper offline]

And what I meant about Franz not having it all together is that sometimes he didn't think things through and they turned out badly.

True, true - three words, Multi, Agent, System

Exactly. Back on subject, how advanced do you guys think the software on the terminal Jeremy uses is? Like, what would you say he has to type in everytime he virtualizes someone? (I know that if you actually read it, it's PHP programming but let's assume it was real code) The best way to figure it out is how many variables there are in each trip. What would he need to input to the computer?

Another question, if I recall correctly, Lyoko was going to be used as a communication jammer or some kind of weapon. Why go to the trouble of making a virtual world, a supcomputer and scanners for that? Or did they have other things in mind?

[TB3]

Because Lyoko was not designed as part of Project Carthage - Franz developed it after.

Here's a way of doing it.

Under Project Carthage Franz develops the technology with the help of others.

After leaving the project he then builds the supercomputer by himself, and creates Lyoko, partly as a sanctuary, and possibly as an unhackable OS.

As for the programming code, common opinion is that it is a varient of LINUX or UNIX.

[JeremyHopper offline]

What did Project Carthage exist as originally then?

[TB3]

Project Carthage was probably a Area-51 sort of deal, maybe in the mountains, and probably didn't have it's own virtual reality - why should it?

[Cassius335 offline]

Mountains? In Paris?

[YDV offline]

Mountains? In Paris?

Yes. Don't you remember 'Vertigo'?

Yes, yes, I... agree. >>;

[TB3]

Mountains? In Paris?

Yes. Don't you remember 'Vertigo'?

Yes, yes, I... agree. >>;

Who says Carthage was in Paris - remember that Franz was on the run and probably fled there in order to loose his persuers in an urban environment.

I'm inclined to think that the Chalet in the mountains is where Franz and his family lived while he was working on the Project - I know that if I was building a major scientific base I'd want it remote, and many large pieces of kit probably involved - such as particle accelerators, are gigantic in scope (thus needing open spaces to work in) and need to be underground, and moutains provide much more stable burrowing strata than just getting a shovel and digging in the middle of a field.

[JeremyHopper offline]

Well then why did Franz create Lyoko, the scanners, and all that stuff?

[Stonecreek]

Well then why did Franz create Lyoko, the scanners, and all that stuff?

If TB3 is right about the mountain chateau and all that, then Franz Hopper could've created the factory and all it's goodies as a fallback base of operations. If general logic says you're going to be doing these experiments in a remote area, then defy logic by having your secondary HQ in a densly populated urban area.