Temptation

[TB3]

If you have any tech-babble for sale, LTT will buy it from you!

[Taelia offline]

That's funny.

Let's hope there's another ep like Temptation.

[TaskForceLyoko offline]

It's quite possible that he first started using the device only with "needed" RTTPs...but then as it slowly addled his thoughts and judgement, he became more and more selfish about it. We never saw when he actually started using that invention and under what circumstances, so it's quite possible that all of his selfish actions weren't entirely his fault...that he only made them because the machine was hindering his ability to think clearly.

I'm actually referring to Jeremie's action throughout the series, and not simply this episode. With the first season playing through again, as well as the second season having just finished, Jeremie's actions show a constant pattern of him making decisions regardless of his teammates based purely on his desires - Aelita.

[Mewberries151]

It's quite possible that he first started using the device only with "needed" RTTPs...but then as it slowly addled his thoughts and judgement, he became more and more selfish about it. We never saw when he actually started using that invention and under what circumstances, so it's quite possible that all of his selfish actions weren't entirely his fault...that he only made them because the machine was hindering his ability to think clearly.

I'm actually referring to Jeremie's action throughout the series, and not simply this episode. With the first season playing through again, as well as the second season having just finished, Jeremie's actions show a constant pattern of him making decisions regardless of his teammates based purely on his desires - Aelita.

That's just part of his character. He has always put Aelita's safety above his own, and often his decisions are jaded because he wants to do anything and everything to keep the person he loves safe from any harm. I can't fault him for that, anymore than I can fault Ulrich for using that RTTP in "The Chips Are Down". They might be bad decisions, yes, but Love makes you do desperate, sometimes unintelligent, things. ^^

The fact that he makes his decisions based on his desire to protect Aelita proves that he isn't selfish in his decisions though. He's not interested in his own safety (which would be selfish). He's concerned far more about hers.

[TaskForceLyoko offline]

That's just part of his character. He has always put Aelita's safety above his own, and often his decisions are jaded because he wants to do anything and everything to keep the person he loves safe from any harm. I can't fault him for that, anymore than I can fault Ulrich for using that RTTP in "The Chips Are Down". They might be bad decisions, yes, but Love makes you do desperate, sometimes unintelligent, things. ^^

The fact that he makes his decisions based on his desire to protect Aelita proves that he isn't selfish in his decisions though. He's not interested in his own safety (which would be selfish). He's concerned far more about hers.

Using love as a reason is just an excuse. We have free will, and are responsible for the choices we make. Many of Jeremie's bad decision are not based on Aelita's safety, but on his desire to have her. That's called being selfish.

[Mewberries151]

That's just part of his character. He has always put Aelita's safety above his own, and often his decisions are jaded because he wants to do anything and everything to keep the person he loves safe from any harm. I can't fault him for that, anymore than I can fault Ulrich for using that RTTP in "The Chips Are Down". They might be bad decisions, yes, but Love makes you do desperate, sometimes unintelligent, things. ^^

The fact that he makes his decisions based on his desire to protect Aelita proves that he isn't selfish in his decisions though. He's not interested in his own safety (which would be selfish). He's concerned far more about hers.

Using love as a reason is just an excuse. We have free will, and are responsible for the choices we make. Many of Jeremie's bad decision are not based on Aelita's safety, but on his desire to have her. That's called being selfish.

I disagree. I've never once seen him thinking of "having her". He's too shy and well-bred to think only about just "having her be with him". He does it to protect her. And that's not selfish.

And again, even if love is an "excuse", it still has merit. Free will can be affected by emotions and while we're still responsible for them, love ought to be taken into account when interpreting a person's actions. The world isn't black and white...it's many many shades of grey.

[Vora Lyoko offline]

That is True, but all the same he loves her and in order to keep on doing that I guess you'd ought to keep her alive. SO it's a tiny act of selfish but none is in his huge head.

[MY85 offline]

I disagree. I've never once seen him thinking of "having her". He's too shy and well-bred to think only about just "having her be with him". He does it to protect her. And that's not selfish.

And again, even if love is an "excuse", it still has merit. Free will can be affected by emotions and while we're still responsible for them, love ought to be taken into account when interpreting a person's actions. The world isn't black and white...it's many many shades of grey.

We all know he had a crush on Aelita since this show began. So to make things better for them, he rushed the whole materialization process. 'Cause if Jeremie didn't had feelings for Aelita, the delay of materializing her would have been higher and relationships would be different.

Not only love affects Jeremie's free will, but ambition and... there's a word I'm missing, but it's related to rushing things for a purpose. If CL was rated R, I'd say lust.

[Mewberries151]

That is True, but all the same he loves her and in order to keep on doing that I guess you'd ought to keep her alive. SO it's a tiny act of selfish but none is in his huge head.

A life is a life. He just doesn't want to lose her. That's why Aelita and Jeremie make such interesting opposites when it comes to making decisions:

Aelita's all about the needs of the many over the few. While Jeremie, though he'd like to help the many just as much as Aelita, doesn't want to have her sacrificing herself be a necessary factor in protecting those many.

I wouldn't exactly call it selfish-ness...since he's truly doing it only to keep Aelita safe because he loves her, and not because he expects to gain anything from it. It gets rather complicated. Love has a bit of selfishness involved, I believe, but only in caring whole-heartedly about each other's well-being and the like. ^.^

I disagree. I've never once seen him thinking of "having her". He's too shy and well-bred to think only about just "having her be with him". He does it to protect her. And that's not selfish.

And again, even if love is an "excuse", it still has merit. Free will can be affected by emotions and while we're still responsible for them, love ought to be taken into account when interpreting a person's actions. The world isn't black and white...it's many many shades of grey.

We all know he had a crush on Aelita since this show began. So to make things better for them, he rushed the whole materialization process. 'Cause if Jeremie didn't had feelings for Aelita, the delay of materializing her would have been higher and relationships would be different.

Not only love affects Jeremie's free will, but ambition and... there's a word I'm missing, but it's related to rushing things for a purpose. If CL was rated R, I'd say lust.

Good point. Ambition sounds partially right...but I think most of his ambition comes in wanting to keep Aelita safe and getting rid of XANA for good...which aren't exactly selfish causes. It truly does become complicated when one gets down to the basics of it. What is love, after all, and exactly what does it encompass? ^_^

[MY85 offline]

We all know he had a crush on Aelita since this show began. So to make things better for them, he rushed the whole materialization process. 'Cause if Jeremie didn't had feelings for Aelita, the delay of materializing her would have been higher and relationships would be different.

Not only love affects Jeremie's free will, but ambition and... there's a word I'm missing, but it's related to rushing things for a purpose. If CL was rated R, I'd say lust.

Good point. Ambition sounds partially right...but I think most of his ambition comes in wanting to keep Aelita safe and getting rid of XANA for good...which aren't exactly selfish causes. It truly does become complicated when one gets down to the basics of it. What is love, after all, and exactly what does it encompass? ^_^

Ambition is usually related to greed. But he seemed to have good intentions, but he can't make a vision of the consequences, he could face once he messes up stuff.

What is love? Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me no more... Roxburry Kid!! Sorry for this little off-topic. In a more on-topic note, Jeremie and Aelita do feel love for each other and seem to have a more firm relationship, but it's not much seen. And I wonder how did Aelita started to feel when she started to develop any kind of emotions, moods or feelings.

[TaskForceLyoko offline]

I disagree. I've never once seen him thinking of "having her". He's too shy and well-bred to think only about just "having her be with him". He does it to protect her. And that's not selfish.

And again, even if love is an "excuse", it still has merit. Free will can be affected by emotions and while we're still responsible for them, love ought to be taken into account when interpreting a person's actions. The world isn't black and white...it's many many shades of grey.

He abandoned Yumi to the digital sea so he could virtualize Aelita. I call that wanting to "have her" or be with her. He revealed Lyoko and the supercomputer to a stranger, ignoring all the suspicions of his friends because he wanted her to be with him and refused to think otherwise. He sent everyone into Sector Five on an ill-conceived mission to recover Aelita's fragment because he almost lost her. He abused the RTTP so he can separate her from Xana, which did not affect her safety, despite knowing the consequences.

It's not about black and white or shades of gray. When important decisons need to be made, emotions and issues are checked at the door. It's called big boy rules.

[Mewberries151]

He abandoned Yumi to the digital sea so he could virtualize Aelita. I call that wanting to "have her" or be with her....He abused the RTTP so he can separate her from Xana, which did not affect her safety, despite knowing the consequences.

When did any of that happen? If you'll recall, he brought Yumi back in "Cruel Dilemma". He would have liked to bring Aelita back instead, but he did not want to abandon Yumi either. He was stuck between a rock and a hard place there. But he chose Yumi despite his love and caring for Aelita, which makes that point moot. Regardless of what his thoughts and wants might have been, he agreed with Aelita despite them.

Yes, he abused the RTTP, but separating her from XANA has to do with keeping her safe, not always with wanting to have her in the real world. Having her be free of XANA would mean she was no longer in danger of being killed on Lyoko or throught the super computer being shut down. His actions are always towards protecting her. Not "having her".

He revealed Lyoko and the supercomputer to a stranger, ignoring all the suspicions of his friends because he wanted her to be with him and refused to think otherwise.

That's also a moot point, in my opinion. He honestly thought she was Aelita, and I can't blame him because for all intents and purposes she does resemble her to the point of passing for a twin. As for his friends being suspicious, Ulrich only cautioned him about shutting off Lyoko because they hadn't yet been able to check if Aelita was there.

As for Odd's suspicions, even Ulrich admitted that his opinion might be jaded because Taelia blew off his rather flirty sounding introduction, which means that Jeremie could have easily assumed the same.

And like I said, I think lack of sleep ought to be taken into his case during that episode. After missing the equivalent of 48 hours of sleep, you can be declared as having some signs of insanity. I still don't see him acting selfishly, really.

He sent everyone into Sector Five on an ill-conceived mission to recover Aelita's fragment because he almost lost her.

That's interpretation. They'd planned on journeying into Sector 5 before she nearly died. While the fact that he nearly lost her might have settled it for him, it was not the beginning reason for that mission. And I don't recall either Ulrich, Yumi, or Odd saying that they didn't want to go into Sector 5. that decision was made mutually by the group as they all wanted to end the fight against XANA. It was not a decision Jeremie made completely of his own accord, and thus doesn't mark him as being selfish.

Plus, recovering Aelita's lost fragment figures under protecting her, in my book, as it separates her from XANA, which in turn prevents monsters from being able to utterly destroy her in Lyoko, or a simple throw of the switch from killing her.

I'm not saying Jeremie wouldn't like to have her be with him in the real world. I'm just saying that is not the main motivation for his actions. Keeping her safe is all that really matters to him.

It's not about black and white or shades of gray. When important decisons need to be made, emotions and issues are checked at the door. It's called big boy rules.

It's also called thinking like a machine. Show me one scenario where a human made a decision that was not based even the tiniest bit on an emotion or issue. It's not possible. Everything has a motive, whether it be a past memory, an emotion, or a relationship. That's what happens when one is human. Only XANA makes decisions without emotions or issues...and that's probably why Team Lyoko was able to fend him off for so long. One can let emotions and issues influence one less in certain scenarios through will power...but that does not necessarily mean that those decisions were the best that could be made or even the right ones.

I'll give you an example...if Jeremie had played by those so-called "Big Boy Rules" in "Cold War", what do you think would have happened to Yumi? Activating an RTTP makes XANA more powerful...and his friendship for Yumi is just an emotion/issue, isn't it? Disregarding emotions and issues completely in making a decision just leads to heartless-ness, I think.

[TaskForceLyoko offline]

If you'll recall, he brought Yumi back in "Cruel Dilemma". He would have liked to bring Aelita back instead, but he did not want to abandon Yumi either.

He brought Yumi back after Aelita told everyone that he already knew it was possible. The whole time he was mourning Yumi's loss with the others, he knew he could use the virtualization program to do it, but hid the fact so he could use it on Aelita. Aelita made the choice, not Jeremie. Jeremie betrayed Yumi and the team's trust. This was a non-decision, not between a rock and a hard place. So not only is the point not moot, it shows the depth that Jeremie will go.

Yes, he abused the RTTP, but separating her from XANA has to do with keeping her safe, not always with wanting to have her in the real world. Having her be free of XANA would mean she was no longer in danger of being killed on Lyoko or throught the super computer being shut down. His actions are always towards protecting her. Not "having her".

Arguable. Aelita was not in any immediate danger from Xana and he knew using the RTTP would increase Xana's power, increasing the risk to her. He wanted her separated from Lyoko and was willing to jeopardize her safety to do it. Doesn't sound like he had her safety in mind.

That's also a moot point, in my opinion. He honestly thought she was Aelita, and I can't blame him because for all intents and purposes she does resemble her to the point of passing for a twin. As for his friends being suspicious, Ulrich only cautioned him about shutting off Lyoko because they hadn't yet been able to check if Aelita was there.

He wanted her to be Aelita. No amount of logic could explain how Taelia was Aelita. No evidence of any kind existed. His desire overrode any common sense he had. That's being selfish.

And like I said, I think lack of sleep ought to be taken into his case during that episode. After missing the equivalent of 48 hours of sleep, you can be declared as having some signs of insanity. I still don't see him acting selfishly, really.

Been there, done that. More times than I'd like to remember.

Show me one scenario where a human made a decision that was not based even the tiniest bit on an emotion or issue. It's not possible.

Really. I've kicked in countless doors and ordered others to do so knowing that people inside wanted to kill us as we entered. I also knew there was a chance that some of us would not make it, yet made the decisions because the job needed to get done. That's what big boy rules are.

Disregarding emotions and issues completely in making a decision just leads to heartless-ness, I think.

I still have a heart and emotions.

[Mewberries151]

If you'll recall, he brought Yumi back in "Cruel Dilemma". He would have liked to bring Aelita back instead, but he did not want to abandon Yumi either.

He brought Yumi back after Aelita told everyone that he already knew it was possible. The whole time he was mourning Yumi's loss with the others, he knew he could use the virtualization program to do it, but hid the fact so he could use it on Aelita. Aelita made the choice, not Jeremie. Jeremie betrayed Yumi and the team's trust. This was a non-decision, not between a rock and a hard place. So not only is the point not moot, it shows the depth that Jeremie will go.

This is again, interpretation. We don't know that Jeremie was "hiding" that solution from them. He was expressing grief at Yumi having fallen into the digital void because she's a friend. It appeared to me, that in his grief, he had quite forgotten about the operational materialization program. Aelita didn't quite comprehend grief and she thinks logically so the answer was clear as a bell to her. Jeremie sounded rather startled when she mentioned the materialization program, as if he hadn't thought of it before and was rather amazed that he hadn't. I honestly think that losing Yumi to the digital void, along with everything else that had happened during the course of XANA's attack had made him temporarily forget the materialization program's existence...no one else seemed to recall it as an option because they too were wracked with grief.

I don't think his forgetting about the materialization program was any betrayal on his part towards the group. I think he merely had forgotten about it in the stressful events and his mourning for Yumi.

Yes, he abused the RTTP, but separating her from XANA has to do with keeping her safe, not always with wanting to have her in the real world. Having her be free of XANA would mean she was no longer in danger of being killed on Lyoko or throught the super computer being shut down. His actions are always towards protecting her. Not "having her".

Arguable. Aelita was not in any immediate danger from Xana and he knew using the RTTP would increase Xana's power, increasing the risk to her. He wanted her separated from Lyoko and was willing to jeopardize her safety to do it. Doesn't sound like he had her safety in mind.

This is again, open to interpretation. Keeping XANA active is both a threat to her survival (and everyone elses), but turning him off is just as detrimental. Perhaps he thought that, in the course of a few RTTPs, he'd have the answer, and they could cure Aelita's anti-virus, and turn off XANA before he had the chance to do anything. The fight against XANA is all about a race against time...quite literally really. Aelita's safety is in constant peril, no matter what actions Jeremie can take. That's why I pity him. No matter what he tries, the fact that she's tied to XANA will always undo his ability to effectively protect her. It's a double-edged sword.

That's also a moot point, in my opinion. He honestly thought she was Aelita, and I can't blame him because for all intents and purposes she does resemble her to the point of passing for a twin. As for his friends being suspicious, Ulrich only cautioned him about shutting off Lyoko because they hadn't yet been able to check if Aelita was there.

He wanted her to be Aelita. No amount of logic could explain how Taelia was Aelita. No evidence of any kind existed. His desire overrode any common sense he had. That's being selfish.

If she looks like Aelita, sounds like Aelita, and acts like Aelita, to an extent, then by all means, shouldn't she be Aelita? Humans trust their senses more than anything else. She looked like Aelita, and she sounded like her; that's sight and hearing affected right there, and they have the biggest input on how humans think. I think sight and sound were reasons to believe she was Aelita. I know I might have thought the same if I was in his shoes.

I'd like to add that it should again, be considered that he was on very little sleep, which would also override much of his common sense. I don't think being unhealthy constitutes selfishness.

And like I said, I think lack of sleep ought to be taken into his case during that episode. After missing the equivalent of 48 hours of sleep, you can be declared as having some signs of insanity. I still don't see him acting selfishly, really.

Been there, done that. More times than I'd like to remember.

Alright, then we've reached an impass there.

Show me one scenario where a human made a decision that was not based even the tiniest bit on an emotion or issue. It's not possible.

Really. I've kicked in countless doors and ordered others to do so knowing that people inside wanted to kill us as we entered. I also knew there was a chance that some of us would not make it, yet made the decisions because the job needed to get done. That's what big boy rules are.

From this description, as I really don't know much about you, I'm guessing you either work in the services of some sort. I apologize for any ignorance in my posts on that account.

In any case though, being a pacifist myself, and valuing human life above all else, I'll just have to call an impass here as well. I don't agree with the "Big Boy Rules", as I hate to see any loss of life whatsoever. I'd like to note though that the fact that you felt the job needed to be done should still count as an issue. You wanted to stop whoever was behind that door for the good of the masses, right? That's emotion. Maybe I'm naive about this kind of thing, but I have always felt that humans inevitably act with their hearts at the base of all things. It's just the way that we, as a race and species, are. ^_^

Disregarding emotions and issues completely in making a decision just leads to heartless-ness, I think.

I still have a heart and emotions.

I did not intend it to sound like that, and I also was not aware of your occupation. I apologize for that, and ask your forgiveness as well. I understand that those in the services must make decisions based on orders that they often might not rather carry out or that go against their morals, but still do for the greater good. I was actually more referring to the unfortunate amount of evil in this world...those that disregard emotions and issues and make decisions that will only better themselves. And like I might have mentioned, I still find it impossible to believe that there is any single decision that can be made without their being some underlying emotion, motive, or issue behind it. Only computers and machines can do that.

I did not mean to sound as if I were calling you heart-less or unfeeling. I apologize once again.

[animenologist offline]

When taken into context, you are asking a whole lot of Jeremie to be able to check his emotions at the door everytime he makes a decision. He was only 12 (now 13), who only a couple years ago was probably living an average life with friends. He's not a soldier, a police officer, a SWAT team member, any kinda occupation where he is trained to make decisions while keeping his feelings in check.

You say he should follow the "big boy rules", but the thing is, he's not a big boy. None of them are big boys/girls. They're all adolescents mentally and Jeremie is probably given the most mentally straining job of the 5. He's responsible for the groups safety, the organizer of their missions, the major decision maker in their group placed in a leading position, and usually the one charged with finding the solution to their season long dilemma. And despite all that, he atleast hasn't led to the group to destruction yet or led the group totally astray, while still maintaining the mission.

[Mewberries151]

That's a really good point, Animenologist. I know I've been guilty of forgetting that they're just 12-14 year old kids...the fact that they can even deal with half the things they do and not have broken down yet or completely lost it, amazes me, and is a testament to just how strong of character they already are. ^_^

[TaskForceLyoko offline]

That's the thing about Jeremie that makes him a good character. He's flawed. It's very easy for the writers to make all his actions "over-noble", but they didn't. He's selfish, but that doesn't mean he's bad.

[animenologist offline]

Thats what I like about all the characters. They are all flawed individual human beings, each one of them with their quirks. It makes them realistic as well as making the interaction between them all the more enjoyable.

Jeremie is very stubborn when it comes the safety and well-fare of Aelita. It is my guess that he was the one who convinced the rest of the gang to keep the supercomputer online, so that he can find a way to bring Aelita to safety. Of course, his ambition to free her and stop XANA has led him astray many times, and he needs the gang to balance him out whenever his big head gets to large to contain itself.

Aelita, like Jeremie, is as stubborn, except like Mewberries stated, feels that her life is inconsequential to others. Probably due to the fact that for the past 2 years, she thought herself an artificially created intelligence, whose only reason for existence was to keep XANA in check. Probably in her mind, as long as she keeps up that duty, whatever happens to her doesn't matter. In a way, I feel she doubts her own self-worth. This of course leads to multiple occassions where she will willingly (or recklessly) place herself into XANA's waiting hands for the safety of another.

Odd basically doesn't give the situations they're in the seriousness they deserve a lot of the time. And you get situations where he'll get KO'd too quickly since he puts himself in too great a risk.

Ulrich and Yumi share similar character flaws. On the surface, they appear to be emotionally strong, which belie their underlying insecurities, probably stemming from family trouble as well as their inability to openly admit their feelings for one another.

Personally, flawed characters always make for more interesting stories, even better if their flaws lead to unwanted and even dire consequences. Makes it all the more fun and all the more easier to relate to the characters.

[Mewberries151]

That's the thing about Jeremie that makes him a good character. He's flawed. It's very easy for the writers to make all his actions "over-noble", but they didn't. He's selfish, but that doesn't mean he's bad.

I still disagree with your calling him selfish. Selfish is how Sissi acted throughout the greater part of season 1. Jeremie's not perfect, and he's definitely a "stubborn fool" ^^; ...But I still don't really think he qualifies as <i>selfish</i> selfish....can a person be selfish in someone else's stead? *giggles* Anyway...

I do agree whole-heartedly with you, Animenologist, about flaws making the CL characters all the more believable and "real" to the viewer. Not too many cartoons these days, give their characters such well-rounded, believable, yet still unique personalities. I would wonder if Team Lyoko was based (back when Garage Kids was in the planning stage) upon an actual group of kids that one of the creators happened to know.

[oddsgrlfriend offline]

The whole video diary thing was just creepy. Could Jeremie be becoming the younger version of Hopper? I mean they have a lot in common.
1.both love Aelita
2.both have sacraficed themselves for her
3.both operated the supercomputer
4.both had a video diary

Should we be getting worried about Jeremie?

[. offline]

The whole video diary thing was just creepy. Could Jeremie be becoming the younger version of Hopper? I mean they have a lot in common.
1.both love Aelita
2.both have sacraficed themselves for her
3.both operated the supercomputer
4.both had a video diary

Should we be getting worried about Jeremie?

O.o I hope you mean in two different ways because otherwise.... Thats just... Wow. lol

Ah bothed liked and hated this ep. The plot was pretty lame, the only high points of it where Jeremy being ticked off for a change, and that sweet Animation of Aelita turning around and speaking to Jeremy that I just love the way she looks in it. Word.

[oddsgrlfriend offline]

The whole video diary thing was just creepy. Could Jeremie be becoming the younger version of Hopper? I mean they have a lot in common.
1.both love Aelita
2.both have sacraficed themselves for her
3.both operated the supercomputer
4.both had a video diary

Should we be getting worried about Jeremie?

O.o I hope you mean in two different ways because otherwise.... Thats just... Wow. lol

Ah bothed liked and hated this ep. The plot was pretty lame, the only high points of it where Jeremy being ticked off for a change, and that sweet Animation of Aelita turning around and speaking to Jeremy that I just love the way she looks in it. Word.

Well duh I mean in different ways! The thing is it pretty safe to say that Hopper isn't exactly sane. Should we be worried that Jeremie is going off the deep end alittle?

[emoBillâ„¢ offline]

Wellz, he is very scared right now since Xana escaped. Course he is going off the deep end a little. He will probably start acting like Hopper in the last part of his diary video.

[Jeremie Lover offline]

This episode creeped me out. I mean you saw Jeremie trying to escape this black void (what was that?). Very good though ^_^

[emoBillâ„¢ offline]

It was the energy that the headset drained from him. Probably =P