Minor's Rights

[TheLQ offline]

After seeing this in the "Fracne ban's cell phone's in schools" topic, i can't help but show you that minor's DO have rights. Note that I'm 16, so i know what I'm talking about, but do fall under the term "minor"

First i would like to say that minors aren't dogs, their not lesser human beings, their regular human beings. Agreeing with that means that you believe in slavery, since slaves were considered lesser humans and sometimes dogs.

Now minors are pretty limited in rights, and some of them are for the common good. Minors can't have weapons (school shootings and raging emotions), can't vote (more on that later), can't smoke or drink until 21 or 18 respectively (smoking understandable, more on drinking later), and can't do much without a parent. Well lemme introduce you to some examples on why some of this stuff is bad

Voting: Voting is a big thing in some schools. Way back in middle school, we had a mock vote for Bush & whoever was facing him (bush wanted a second term). We all voted, waited to see who one, and got the results (bush, sigh). Now in middle school, i don't think they should vote. While mock elections are nice, its more of favoritism based on parents or extream biases. And mental compacity isn't all that big in middle school.
Then you enter high school. In high school, minds grow and take in a crapton of (mostly useless) information. We start to shave, drive, get into relationships, party, etc. We are essentially becoming adults. So why is our right to vote taken from us? We have the mental capacity to look into the deeper side of things, know all the policies of a particular person, and make a sane judgment. But were denied the right to vote? The reason i think we are is because a small group of stupid people pissed off a congressman. I'm tired of the minority deciding for the majority. WE ARE ALL NOT STUPID! Look at the bigger picture! Yes some people smoke, drink, crash, get pregnant, and all sorts of stupid stuff. But are we all (and i mean 90%) smoking, drinking, crashing, getting pregnant? No! We are all not stupid. The reason were grouped as minors is because of flawed logic that we are not smart enough to do it. We are!

This brings me to smoking and drinking. Now the bars are currently set at where they are because drinking and smoking is generically regarded as unsafe-ish. But haven't you heard the saying "Everything is good in moderation". Before you blow this out of proportion saying 1 kill a week is moderate, this only applies to the majority of situations, and their are always exceptions. Nothing is absolute.
First lemme say that smoking will be excluded from this. The reason is that it is generally hated and county's and state's have been making moves to ban smoking from public places. Smoking dosen't have any real benefits besides looking tough. Also look at the ingredient's. I'm not smoking something that has nitro in it. And my issue with the law is that its illegal to buy but not illegal to use. WT*? So instead of buying it themselves, they go to their older friend or parent and get it from them. While in theory cutting supply will kill demand, people are just going to get it from others. It should be illegal to smoke if your under 18 so we can get rid of the smokers in bathrooms and outside school property. And why is it only 18? Out of the 2, which is more dangerous: slowly filling your lungs with tar (which can't be repaired) or slowly hardening your kidney (which can sort-of-ish be repaired)?
Now with drinking, this is a different story. In high school, lets face it, people drink. Its common. And are we all dead yet? No! Drinking is an accepted cultural thing, and is very broadcasted. Bar's are everywhere. And for good reason: Alcohol isn't as dangerous as smoking. If you smoke, you've risked black lung, leukemia, and various forms of caner. If you drink, your only risking liver disease, but that's only if you abuse it. In moderation, the liver will repair itself. So why is it hated more than smoking? You must be 21 to drink, vs 18 to smoke. Why? It should be set down to at least 18, if not 15. We can handle it. Through safe parenting and teaching, it will stop the useless party war where cops have to stop a party because of "suspected" drinking.

Now for the control of the parent. The people in government now usually had good childhoods. There parents were nice, treated them well, and wanted them to succeed. Well their exists a whole world out there that they haven't seen: bad parenting. I point you to a recent tosh.0 episode on comedy central where a parent lets his kid ride a bike outside of his pickup truck. The kid just falls off the end because he didn't lift up his front side. While he's screaming on the ground, the parent just sits there and asks if he's ok. Bad parenting. I then point you to the multiple parents that hand their children cigarettes and even pot. Bad parenting (and illegal). Abuse also exists in households. Bad parenting.
Now this is where my personal issues enter. Parents aren't always good. Some treat their kids like sh*t. And we can't do much. We can't be in the process of custody, divorce, movement, and alot of decision making. I have the right to decide who i go with. I have the right to insert my opinion. And i have the right to run away. Running away is a big issue to me: Kids usually run away because they hate their parents and can't deal with it anymore. What do the police do? Find you and put you back with your parents. Where's the productiveness in that? What has that solved? The kid is usually now going to be banished to their room and have thick bars outside their windows. The situation hasen't improved. I have the right to choose where i go, who i be, and what i do. The police should not take that away from me. We have the mental capacity to make sane decisions in high school. Sanity to us is different from what others think, no matter how old you are. Some people say obama being elected was insane, and some say it was sane. Its different to us all.

*Waits for the college kids and adults to crush the uprising of a minor.

[SearchingLyoko offline]

I agree on a lot of this.

Personally, I think that everything should be decided by a test...

I know MANY minors that would be more responsible driving, voting, etc. then many adults..

So my idea is that... when you enter high school, you have the right to take a test to apply to do any of these things...

If it's proved you're responsible, you get to do these things, regardless of age... if you don't pass... regardless of age, you can't.

Every few years, your "license" for these things expires, and you must re-take the test (to account for character changes... like development of alcaholism or drug addiction)

This way... we eliminate the bad people from the system, regardless of age

[SilverPrince offline]

Here's the deal.

There has to be some point that is "too young". No matter how low the voting age is, people will want it lower. No matter how far you lower the legal age for [substance], people will want it lower. No matter how far you lower the age for consent, for marriage, for entering into contracts, people will want it lower. I wouldn't mind everything being set to 18, with the possible exception of driving and sexual consent, merely because we're used to these things already, and society is already used to teenagers driving. As for sexual consent, we all know teenagers are going to do it. We might as well not make an entire generation felons.

I could see voting at 16. I think there are a few countries that do it already, and they haven't collapsed. But my problem is that not every 16 year old in this country is ready to vote. Which is where...

Personally, I think that everything should be decided by a test.

comes in. I really like this idea. But there's a big problem with this: money. Money to come up with the tests. Money to administer the tests. Money to grade the tests. Money money money. We're in debt as it is. I don't think we can afford all this bureaucracy.

As for bad parenting, no law is going to stop that. But having a bunch of teenagers out on the street isn't very good either. A child who is being abused should report that abuse. I know there are often circumstances that can make that difficult, and the foster care system is not very fun, but that's what they're there for. At least in my state, 16 year olds and up can be legally emancipated from abusive parents.

Overall, I support putting pretty much everything at 18. On a side note, the test thing is a good theoretical idea, and the foster care system needs reform.

[Jazzy Josh offline]

I am 18 and yes, I'm in college. I don't think 18 year olds should have the right to vote. 21 should be the minimum.

So why is our right to vote taken from us? We have the mental capacity to look into the deeper side of things, know all the policies of a particular person, and make a sane judgment.

Because 95% of the group won't. Name to me 30 people that you know that regularly read up on politics by themselves. It seems people are confusing "right" with "privilege". Voting is a privilege. If you commit a felony in all but two states, you lose your right to vote.

i have the right to run away.

No you don't. Your parents are expected to take care of you until you are sixteen. If you want to declare yourself an emancipated minor after that, then go right ahead.

[SearchingLyoko offline]

Well... there could be a small fee for said test.....

Like how some schools require you to take money to take special AP exams.
_________________

And this test is applicable to ALL ages... and must be taken at certain intervals (like every 5 years).... so like let's say that someone developed an Alcahol addiction... that person would fail the test and would not be able to drink, smoke, drive, vote, etc. until they shapened up and retook the test.

[SilverPrince offline]

Well... there could be a small fee for said test.....

Like how some schools require you to take money to take special AP exams.
_________________

And this test is applicable to ALL ages... and must be taken at certain intervals (like every 5 years).... so like let's say that someone developed an Alcahol addiction... that person would fail the test and would not be able to drink, smoke, drive, vote, etc. until they shapened up and retook the test.

It's kind of against the Constitution to pay a fee to vote. The 24th amendment bans poll taxes. And while paying to take a test isn't exactly a tax, I'd still say the courts wouldn't look upon it very fondly. And this whole thing isn't exactly living up to the country's democratic ideals. I can understand driving, smoking and drinking, but taking a test to vote is... well, it's responsible I suppose. But everything American in me says it's wrong.

[SearchingLyoko offline]

True...

well.. maybe for the vote thing... kind of like how prisoner's can't vote... if you mess up, we ban your voting rights for a while.

[SilverPrince offline]

Who defines what "mess up" is? Who decides how long the punishment is? The minimum offense for being disenfranchised should be what it already is, a felonious offense. This is a very dangerous, very slippery theoretical slope that we're on.

[SearchingLyoko offline]

Well... like for instance.. you're arrested for DUI.

Does that mean you should be permanently banned from voting? I don't think so. But once you've served a predetermined ban from voting, gone to AA, etc. then you could be let back in.

[Rho offline]

I can understand the drinking, smoking, and driving ages, as well as the Sexual consent age to a certain degree (though having it between 16-18 is asking for problems) , but voting age? No. Kids should be able to vote. We're citizens.

[Jazzy Josh offline]

I can understand the drinking, smoking, and driving ages, as well as the Sexual consent age to a certain degree (though having it between 16-18 is asking for problems) , but voting age? No. Kids should be able to vote. We're citizens.

Two points.
1) You're being ambiguous with your statement. Are you saying every kid should be able to vote?
2) Back to the point about felons. Felons are still citizens. They don't have the right to vote. By your logic, you're saying that Felons have a right to vote because they are citizens.

[SearchingLyoko offline]

Well... I think certain felons should be able to redeem themselves... (obviously not all of them, like a 22-count-murderer wouldn't be able to)

And for the kid thing... I still suggest there should be a test first. Some kids are more responsible then some adults... and some kids aren't... and never will be even as adults.

[TheLQ offline]

Haven't gotten on in a while, so this will be long

I am 18 and yes, I'm in college. I don't think 18 year olds should have the right to vote. 21 should be the minimum.

So why is our right to vote taken from us? We have the mental capacity to look into the deeper side of things, know all the policies of a particular person, and make a sane judgment.

Because 95% of the group won't. Name to me 30 people that you know that regularly read up on politics by themselves. It seems people are confusing "right" with "privilege". Voting is a privilege. If you commit a felony in all but two states, you lose your right to vote.

i have the right to run away.

No you don't. Your parents are expected to take care of you until you are sixteen. If you want to declare yourself an emancipated minor after that, then go right ahead.

Voting is a right. Its plastered everywhere in the constitution. I can't remember which amendment (i believe it's 13), but it says citizens have the right to vote. If you say that people less than 18 aren't citizens, then their slaves to there parents, which is illegal. We are citizens.

And with your question on how many kids keep up with politics, how many adults do?

The right to run away is a right. Does the law care where you go? No! Does the law care where i go? It shouldn't. If i want to run away, i can. And how is bringing my back to my parents remedying the situation? Why do you think i did run away? To get away from my parents! How is bringing back to them solving anything?

Parents are expected to take care of us until we are 16. So it should be their responsibility to find us, not the governments.

As for bad parenting, no law is going to stop that. But having a bunch of teenagers out on the street isn't very good either. A child who is being abused should report that abuse. I know there are often circumstances that can make that difficult, and the foster care system is not very fun, but that's what they're there for. At least in my state, 16 year olds and up can be legally emancipated from abusive parents.

The current laws need to be expanded somewhat. While i don't want them to be extreame, a kid is not in a "happy" household if he/she is freqently thinking of suicide because of his parents. While technically their parents aren't breaking the law, they are making their kid mentally unstable, which is bad

Overall, I support putting pretty much everything at 18. On a side note, the test thing is a good theoretical idea, and the foster care system needs reform.

Agreed.

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With the felon discussion, i didn't know that before. I do agree though that some felons should be able to redeem themselves. A guy who robbed a bank is not incapable of voting for who's president. They have enough time to keep up with politics. Heck, in some minimum security prisons, the people there no more about a presentational canadite that people on the outside.

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Tests would be a legal gray area. While technically its not a poll tax or infringing on anyone's rights, we could still have corrupt test graders that might fail someone just because they hated them. It would also exclude alot of people.

My take on it is that there should be a basic test where you must get greater than 80% of the questions correct. You can come back and take it 5 times. If you fail all of them, you can't vote. This is a good way to tell if a person has enough mental capacity to vote. If a person dosen't know what 2+2 is, i sure don't want them to be voting for my president.

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side note: I thought phpbb2 was smarter than this, everything between my less than and greater than symbol got cleared out, being treated as a super massive html tag.

[SearchingLyoko offline]

Lesson of the thread: Politics are a mess.

[Jazzy Josh offline]

Voting is a right. Its plastered everywhere in the constitution. I can't remember which amendment (i believe it's 13), but it says citizens have the right to vote. If you say that people less than 18 aren't citizens, then their slaves to there parents, which is illegal. We are citizens.

Section. 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.

Section. 2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Nowhere does it say that everyone has a right to vote. It says that it can't be infringed upon "on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude."

Anyway.. it doesn't matter anyway, just wait a few years, voting is not fun, you have to plan time to make decisions and do research.

[SearchingLyoko offline]

Not many politicians are worth voting for anyways these days.