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I just can't do it anymore

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I just can't do it anymore

Postby TheLQ » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:12 pm

My life would be perfect if it wasn't for one person: My Dad.

I truly hate him. He is the worst person i know of. Worse than the racist people at school. Opinionated. Elitist. Paranoid. Controlling. Forceful. Always-rightness. I could go on and on about his classifications.

He thinks that kids have no rights. He thinks that parents should decide for everything with absolutly no involvment. I consider it slavery. For those of you that are rolling your eyes, slavery is defined as "slave - a person who is owned by someone; slave - someone who works as hard as a slave; slave - work very hard, like a slave; slave - someone entirely dominated by some influence or person: "a slave to fashion", "a slave to cocaine", "his mother was his abject slave"" (wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn). I believe i fall under all those definitions. I work my butt off in hot weather while he sits inside in the cool ~70 degrees Fahrenheit. Dad treats me as property, and the only think preventing him from selling me is his wife and the US laws. I am also completely dominated by him; his opinions and "words of wisdom" are shoved down my throat even though i disagree with alot of them.

He also doesn't care about me personally. All he cares about is himself. He preached to me when i was young that the world doesn't revolve around me. That's because the world was already revolving around him. Everything goes by him. I believe my step mom is afraid of him. She has a big ego, but i see it fail, when dad forces her to listen to him. Right before he gives a task, he asks himself it will affect him personally, and if it passes, says yes, even though the task might be degrading to me, degrading to the family as a whole, way too much work, or unfair.

And I've tried the consular route. I went to a place for probably 8+ years (can't remember an exact date). I've tried to convince him that he's wrong. I've tried to tell him raising a kid shouldn't be like the marine boot camp he went through in the 80's. I've tried to show him that he does have alot of random and scary outbreaks. I've tried to show him that he cusses way too much around us. I've tried to show him that calling your kid a piece of $hit is bad (this actually happens). I've tried to show him that i'm not like him. I've tried to show him that i can't take it anymore. But nothing has worked. About 5 months ago, he said he wasn't coming in anymore because, "I will not change". I haven't seen that consular sense.

Running away will not work either. Several of my friends have run away and have always been caught. The longest anyone has lasted was 5 days. I'm not going to run away, eat nothing but fast or cheap food, just to last 5 days.

Neither will convincing my mom will work (my dad and mom are divorced). She is powerless. My dad in middle school showed the court a list of all the times i got an infraction (stupid little things where if you got in trouble, even if it was small, it was recorded and a parent had to sign it), and most of them where on my moms week (the schedule used to be week with dad, week with mom, repeat). He got them to change it to where i see my mom every other weekend. After months of pleading, it was changed to every other weekend+Monday.
The problem now is that dad has started putting himself before school, instead of the "school comes first" thing he told the court. I've gotten several 0's on assignments because i didn't have time for chores + homework. If its important, God can't stop dad from forcing me to do it.

And I'm getting to the point where i just can't take it anymore. My extreme passiveness and stoicness is failing (I didn't cry at my step-grandma's funneral or when i heard my granddad died. My brother was bawling). His theory of "boot camp where down = strong son" is crap. The violent thoughts and dreams, the pressure, the name calling, the degrading, its just too much.

So I'm asking you: Is their anything i can do?

(PS: if you think i'm some whiny 8 year old, I'm a 16 year old sophomore, who has good grades. Don't even try to pull that one)
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Postby TheAppleFreak » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:27 pm

...
...
...
...Your dad deserves to go to hell.
The way he's treating you is, as you say, like that of a slave.
I seriously feel sorry for you. You should report this on your free time to someone who can do something about it.
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Postby . » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:50 pm

How old is your old man?

and consider it motivation to get your life in check, so you can leave home asap (but you'll probbly end up using his cash for college.)

JesusFreak would tell you to use the bible BTW.
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Postby TheLQ » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:24 pm

TheAppleFreak wrote:You should report this on your free time to someone who can do something about it.


You think anyone cares? I've told many diffrent people (dad's friends, that consular, school consular, friends) but no one has or can do anything. And none of this falls under child harrasment/endangerment/assult/anything else.

Piper wrote:How old is your old man?

38

Piper wrote:and consider it motivation to get your life in check, so you can leave home asap (but you'll probbly end up using his cash for college.)

Thats been my plan for a while. I''ve told this person helping me pick a collage that i want to go to something thats medium distance away (not 10,000 miles away or 1 mile away). I've also told my friends that i'm just going to take his money, goto collage, then drop off the face of the earth.

Here's a little update: My dad now has a suspision that i do drugs, since i didn't feel like eating dinner (i had a large dinner the previous night, plus a large breakfast). My dad also said that if i needed to talk to him, i could, which usually equals dad laughing and degrading me when i try to show him his faults. My stepmom is famous during those talks to constantly say the full version of BS after every sentance. I also usually get in trouble during those times.

Then there was the lawnmower blade. My brother had bent it when cutting the grass, and my dad bought a new one, but took it to a job instead of bringing it home. When i called my dad asking where it was, he said i should ride my bike over. I said no, since his new rule of "Wear a helment when your on your bike or i'm selling it" makes me look like an idiot. I told him that, then he started laughing, talked to my stepmom, then forced me to ride my bike over to where he was. To me, it was degrading, especially when Matt, a kid i hate, laughed at me for wearing a healmet. All because i spoke my opinion to my dad.

EDIT: This afternoon we went out to get ice cream because it was my brothers birthday. During that time, dad asked if i was excited about a camp that i was going to be a consular at. I said no. After some more questions dad said, right in front of me, "So what else are you going to do?" then started typing on an air keyboard, making fun of my hobby of computers. A little later my stepmom did the same thing. Then i finnaly said something like "Can you please stop making fun of me? It hurts when your parents are the one doing it. Do i make fun of your weight?" After that, my dad almost yelled for me to go sit by the car. The whole reason i'm mad is because he didn't get the message: I was trying to compare having my computer hobby being made fun of to me making fun of his weight. Didn't work. He thought i called him fat. Once again geting in trouble for defending myself...
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Postby Rail Runner » Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:44 pm

All I can say is suck it up until you are old enough to be on your own. Nothing you can do will change his mind, so just suck it up and worry about what needs to be worried about, your school grades, and your college stuff coming up.
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Postby . » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:29 am

Not for nothing dude, but as a 20 year old guy that rides his bike all over town, your a fucking idiot if your not wearing a helmet. One nasty spill or hit from a car and you get hit on your unpredicted head... and you won't have to worry about looking like a retard, because you will be a retard.

We're the fucking helmet if you value not living like an autistic child. It's your choice, but it's like contemplating weather you should start smoking or not.

2nd, your father makes you work outside, ever think that after 38 years of living on this planet maybe he deserves to sit inside and relax while he's probbly busting his ass to keep the roof over your head and keeping food in your belly? Do you have to be happy about it, doing the right thing? Fuck no, but you should be doing it.

He's over suspicious that you could be taking drugs? Well he's taking interest in your insignificant life, prehaps maybe you be thankful he actually does in fact give a damn about you? Do you know how many parents simply neglect their kids and just let the chips fall were they do?

You hate your family life so much, take your destiny into your own hands and find your own way to pay for college. take out loans and do shit the hard way, because you have to realize he doesn't have to pay for your college. If he wanted to he could be a real dick and just tell you to do it yourself, so you should consider yourself pretty flippin' lucky, kid.
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Postby TheLQ » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:16 pm

Going in order:
Wearing a helmet is something i'll do when i'm riding on a busy road, crossing lost of streets, or in unfamiliar territory. The place i was riding through was neighboroods and the sidewalk of a semi-busy street (i wasen't crosing it). If i crash, then i crash. Thats my own fault. No one needs to care for me. Their are alternate ways to not going through life braindead or paralyzed.

You consider me lucky? Having a parent that is paying for the basic needs in life and takes his kid to collage is now lucky? To me thats the average american family. And asking about drugs equalls caring? No, thats so his own butt isn't in trouble when the law comes wondering who is doing drugs.

And i'm simply taking advantage of my father. I don't need to go make 20,000 a year when in highschool just to pay for collage, when their is perfectly good money waiting for me.

You also seem to be comparing me to the lowest people. Stop that. I hate it when people compare the US to Africa, or other similar stuff. The only think making my dad care is his wife, my stepmom. She does everything for us, while my dad just sits in his office. He's 38. I've seen several of his trade contractor workers in their 40's and 50's, so i don't care about his age.

Also, no, he dosen't bust his ass to keep a room over my head, its for his head. I am a person that is under his roof because of the law and his wife. If i could, i would leave and go live at my mom's house, where people actually care about ME, not just basic needs. No one else cares, not even my girlfreind. My brother treats me like crap. I have no one else to turn to. So STFU about me being lucky and my dad caring. No, he does not.
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Postby DeadViolet » Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:32 pm

My friend has a problem simialar to yours, XF......Though, I cannot be of any help, I'm sorry.
Have you took him to court?
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Postby . » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:15 pm

Xana's Fist wrote:Going in order:
Wearing a helmet is something i'll do when i'm riding on a busy road, crossing lost of streets, or in unfamiliar territory. The place i was riding through was neighboroods and the sidewalk of a semi-busy street (i wasen't crosing it). If i crash, then i crash. Thats my own fault. No one needs to care for me. Their are alternate ways to not going through life braindead or paralyzed.

You consider me lucky? Having a parent that is paying for the basic needs in life and takes his kid to collage is now lucky? To me thats the average american family. And asking about drugs equalls caring? No, thats so his own butt isn't in trouble when the law comes wondering who is doing drugs.

And i'm simply taking advantage of my father. I don't need to go make 20,000 a year when in highschool just to pay for collage, when their is perfectly good money waiting for me.

You also seem to be comparing me to the lowest people. Stop that. I hate it when people compare the US to Africa, or other similar stuff. The only think making my dad care is his wife, my stepmom. She does everything for us, while my dad just sits in his office. He's 38. I've seen several of his trade contractor workers in their 40's and 50's, so i don't care about his age.

Also, no, he dosen't bust his ass to keep a room over my head, its for his head. I am a person that is under his roof because of the law and his wife. If i could, i would leave and go live at my mom's house, where people actually care about ME, not just basic needs. No one else cares, not even my girlfreind. My brother treats me like crap. I have no one else to turn to. So STFU about me being lucky and my dad caring. No, he does not.


Your a spoiled brat. grow up.
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Postby TheLQ » Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:37 pm

Piper wrote:
Xana's Fist wrote:Going in order:
Wearing a helmet is something i'll do when i'm riding on a busy road, crossing lost of streets, or in unfamiliar territory. The place i was riding through was neighboroods and the sidewalk of a semi-busy street (i wasen't crosing it). If i crash, then i crash. Thats my own fault. No one needs to care for me. Their are alternate ways to not going through life braindead or paralyzed.

You consider me lucky? Having a parent that is paying for the basic needs in life and takes his kid to collage is now lucky? To me thats the average american family. And asking about drugs equalls caring? No, thats so his own butt isn't in trouble when the law comes wondering who is doing drugs.

And i'm simply taking advantage of my father. I don't need to go make 20,000 a year when in highschool just to pay for collage, when their is perfectly good money waiting for me.

You also seem to be comparing me to the lowest people. Stop that. I hate it when people compare the US to Africa, or other similar stuff. The only think making my dad care is his wife, my stepmom. She does everything for us, while my dad just sits in his office. He's 38. I've seen several of his trade contractor workers in their 40's and 50's, so i don't care about his age.

Also, no, he dosen't bust his ass to keep a room over my head, its for his head. I am a person that is under his roof because of the law and his wife. If i could, i would leave and go live at my mom's house, where people actually care about ME, not just basic needs. No one else cares, not even my girlfreind. My brother treats me like crap. I have no one else to turn to. So STFU about me being lucky and my dad caring. No, he does not.


Your a spoiled brat. grow up.


Ah yes, the perfect little kid showing up. The person that probably had everything they wanted, never got yelled at, was actually loved, and probably went to a perfect little school.

Well, not everyone had as good of a life as you do. How the f*ck do think i'm spoiled? You think constant yelling and degrading is spoiled? You think getting treated less than shit is spoiled? Go back to your little sheltered life if your not going to help people who need help.

thousand-mistress: How could i? He's not breaking any laws.
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Postby . » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:59 am

Xana's Fist wrote:
Piper wrote:
Xana's Fist wrote:Going in order:
Wearing a helmet is something i'll do when i'm riding on a busy road, crossing lost of streets, or in unfamiliar territory. The place i was riding through was neighboroods and the sidewalk of a semi-busy street (i wasen't crosing it). If i crash, then i crash. Thats my own fault. No one needs to care for me. Their are alternate ways to not going through life braindead or paralyzed.

You consider me lucky? Having a parent that is paying for the basic needs in life and takes his kid to collage is now lucky? To me thats the average american family. And asking about drugs equalls caring? No, thats so his own butt isn't in trouble when the law comes wondering who is doing drugs.

And i'm simply taking advantage of my father. I don't need to go make 20,000 a year when in highschool just to pay for collage, when their is perfectly good money waiting for me.

You also seem to be comparing me to the lowest people. Stop that. I hate it when people compare the US to Africa, or other similar stuff. The only think making my dad care is his wife, my stepmom. She does everything for us, while my dad just sits in his office. He's 38. I've seen several of his trade contractor workers in their 40's and 50's, so i don't care about his age.

Also, no, he dosen't bust his ass to keep a room over my head, its for his head. I am a person that is under his roof because of the law and his wife. If i could, i would leave and go live at my mom's house, where people actually care about ME, not just basic needs. No one else cares, not even my girlfreind. My brother treats me like crap. I have no one else to turn to. So STFU about me being lucky and my dad caring. No, he does not.


Your a spoiled brat. grow up.


Ah yes, the perfect little kid showing up. The person that probably had everything they wanted, never got yelled at, was actually loved, and probably went to a perfect little school.

Well, not everyone had as good of a life as you do. How the fuck do think i'm spoiled? You think constant yelling and degrading is spoiled? You think getting treated less than shit is spoiled? Go back to your little sheltered life if your not going to help people who need help.

thousand-mistress: How could i? He's not breaking any laws.


The moment you were born, homeboy could of taken off to some far off state and just pay child support. I think your spoiled for the simple damn fact your not giving your father any credit for any thing he's probbly done good. What, have you never had a birthday? What about christmas or whatever? Him being a hardass on you does not a bad father make. You don't gotta be fond of him, but when you go off on a guy at least cut him the slack he deserves for the things he's done right.

My girlfriends mother is a diet pill addict, and I've seen her throw trantrums when shes not on them. When she is on them and normal, she's pretty all right and gets me and girlfriend weed. Shes a terrible parent, but she and her husband could of easily ditched their Autistic son but they haven't/

Perfect little kid? first off, I got a good 5 years on you. Secondly, hell no, I'm a horrible person. And I'm trying to help you by making you realize, you know sir, you could be a helluva a lot worse off as far as parental figures go. Chris Beniot murdered his wife before he went ahead and kill his youngest son. The world is a deep dark horrible place, the least you should do especially before condeming someone as a horrible person is rule out any cause of good in them. Mere things like him giving a damn you wear your bicycle helmet or if your on drugs or paying for college (which, sorry, isn't a God given right. He has every legal right when you turn 18 to kick your ass out the door if he wants) shows that underneath all the jackass that he is that he gives a damn. He could of left your mom in the operating room and paid child support the rest of his life and never cared.

You know as a matter of fact, I do have great parents. I've got one friend whos father is dead from drinking, another whos parents are divorce and his mom disowned him, another whos parents are nearly as good as mine but they've fallen on hard financial times, and another who found a video tape of his father cheating on his mother when he was 8 years old. For all my sardonic, morbid, and borderline insane feelings about the world, I'm thankful every day that I lucked with two good ones because I realize how easily ones world can get knocked the fuck up. One day your eating ceral, that evening someone you care about is being carried off into that deep dark black abyss of death. Be thankful for what you got while you got it.

Thats the end of my poorly written and riddled with spelling errors rant Xana, I shan't be returning to your lil diatribe and Lord knows you don't want me too. But for your own sake, and mine, give it a listen. Really think weather this man that apparently is your blood is really the rotten bastard, that he doesn't do a single damn thing for your better good.
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Postby Mewberries151 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:39 pm

Guys, watch the language please. ^^; This is not a BKO post after all.
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Postby Lyoko Wario » Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:25 pm

My dad is pretty much a douchebag too, dude, but yours takes the cake.

I wish I could have something more constructive / proactive to tell you, I really do, but since I don't know how to fix the same problem myself, all I can tell you is to be your own man (as in, your dad can't make you agree with him if you think he's a moron / jerkwad) and wait for your dependence on him to be over. You'll have an experience you can look back on when you're a father yourself so you'll know how not to treat your kids. Finding a creative outlet, especially fiction writing, works for me, so give that a try if you want. And you're smart not to run away from home. If things don't work themselves out, you'll come up with a solution in due time.
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Postby JesusFreak » Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:42 pm

Piper wrote:JesusFreak would tell you to use the bible BTW.



...Are you trying to start a fight? Just because I develop a life does not mean I don't have the internet access.

And...I say he needs therapy. Therapy is good, yes.
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Postby Rho » Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:47 am

Possibly he has similar treatment from his father when he was a kid and that influenced him to do that to you?
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Postby mcrlvr394 » Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:10 pm

Maybe since you don't spend much time with your mom, your dad feels that he has to be hard on you to help you learn to get by in the real world.

And as far as living with your mom goes, tell your mom and your parents will go to court, you'll state the case and the judge will render verdict. If this is really what you want, and you're seen as responsible enough to make your own choices, and your mom is a fit gaurdian, the judge cannot legally turn your request down.
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Postby matsumo itsu » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:07 am

alright two things, A) I seriously hate your dad and B) when defining a word you don't use the same word in the definition. like this one "slave - someone who works as hard as a slave"

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Postby SearchingLyoko » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:54 am

All I can say is that both sides of the argument are wrong.

Okay... your dad may act terribly, and yes, he should stop that, but that does not make him completely terrible.

Yes, it may make him a jack--- for being so... terrible in his actions, but yeah, you also have to consider what he does for you. And no, it's not just for him probably. I've thought the same thing, many kids have, but it's not entirely true (though maybe some subtle hints).

What I'm saying is that all humans are good... but all humans have flaws to a degree. Some may be greedy, some loudmouthed, some concieted, some all 3. Some, like your dad, are complete jack---es. His degree of faults just happens to hurt others a lot more and happens to be a high degree.

Unfortunately, you just have to deal with it. Sure, you can fight back and you will win some battles, but overall you nee to just deal with it.

And if you can't... "Dad, I've always heard that boarding school builds character."
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Postby Slayer » Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:38 am

SearchingLyoko wrote:And if you can't... "Dad, I've always heard that boarding school builds character."


And if you say that show him the one that kadic was based off (i forgot the name) and say that its cheep and has a good curriculum.
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Postby austronothrusclarki » Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:47 am

You think anyone cares? I've told many diffrent people (dad's friends, that consular, school consular, friends) but no one has or can do anything. And none of this falls under child harrasment/endangerment/assult/anything else.


I have a father who used to be a little unpleasant and difficult to be around, and I have three older sisters who can attest the truth of this, but he does not do this on purpose, is much nicer to be around now and really does love his kids. It was simply who he was, and a man in his mid-forties with no previous experience with raising kids was obviously going to find it difficult to raise 3 teenage girls on a farm.
This is on a whole other level. I believe this does fall under child harrassment. From what it sounds like, this is mental abuse and to the point that he is directly affecting your school work is disgusting. Parents should not be allowed to treat their children like this, and I am shocked that noone has actually done something about this yet (and I think if they contacted the right person and gave them the information and facts listed here, they could do something about it). I can't understand people's responses, as this is a serious problem which won't go away overnight. This must be hard for you, and it may feel that noone will help, but I don't think you should give up.
You could wait for it to be over until you can leave school, but I don't believe you should let this continue, if possible. Even if you will leave home in a couple of years, A) what if (unlikely) he has another kid and treats them badly, the same as he did to you and B) what if when you are older you want to get to know your dad again or vice versa and you still have all this hatred and anger towards him that you never got rid of? (I know B sounds unlikely but...)

Unfortunately, you just have to deal with it. Sure, you can fight back and you will win some battles, but overall you nee to just deal with it.


And sorry Searching, but from what it sounds like, I don't think it should be put up with.

To Lord.Quackstar: those are my thoughts on it, anyway. Best wishes, and may your problem be solved one way or another.
Last edited by austronothrusclarki on Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby SearchingLyoko » Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:55 am

True, true...

Every human has their faults and it is every human, including the fauly one's, duty to cancel the effects of those faults and help to fix them.

However, your father's problems are borderline extreme for a non-evil person. They require precision, direct, and immediant confrontation.

Unfortunately, I ---- at human emotion and I'm afraid you have to seek further guidance.

Just always remember to be the better person.
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Postby TheLQ » Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:08 am

I'm surprised that my topic i posted so long ago is still here.

As an update, things are a little different. I accidentally emailed my school counselor my entire blog/diary, which contained detailed suicidal thoughts. I was forced to go to a behavior hospital for almost a week, making me miss all my finals. My dad has claimed that he is open to change, although i doubt it since before he said that he will never change and that is a parents job.

Right now i have lost alot of privileges, with my parents using the logic of negativity is healed by removing sources of positiveness. I've been restricted on many different things, and expect more when i go over to my dad's. My mom has talked about changing the schedule so i spend the majority of my time over at her house, but there is a large chance that it will not happen.
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Postby SearchingLyoko » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:14 am

If your dad is the way you describe him, he is probably open to change because they talked to him behind your back.

Driving a minor to the brink of suicidal thoughts is in fact child abuse.

He may just be scared of the legal consequences.

Sadly, if what you say is true, that may the only way to deal with him.
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Anyways, I wish you the best of luck once again. Always willing to help however little I may.
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Postby matsumo itsu » Sun Jan 03, 2010 10:35 pm

Best of luck with your dad, hopefully things do change for the better.

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Postby emoBillâ„¢ » Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:16 pm

D.T. Evolution wrote:We're the fucking helmet if you value not living like an autistic child. It's your choice, but it's like contemplating weather you should start smoking or not.

Uhm...that's actually really offensive. I'm autistic and I know that I'm not a retard. I'm actually really high on the spectrum and have an abnormal IQ in the genius range so if you could refrain from making remarks like that, I'd be really grateful :)

On the main topic, it really doesn't sound like your life is that bad. I mean, I'm sure it kind of is, but it's not as bad as half the peoples' on here. Try playing psychological mind games with your mom, who remembers things that never happened and forgets things that did that grounds you and screams at you for "not remembering" them. Try almost committing suicide back in May because she gives your sister everything that you wanted and acts like she never knew you wanted it. Try having to sit there and watch your sister get everything in the entire world, special treatment and auditions for plays and ice cream whenever she wants when you're sitting there and wanting more than anything to just get voice and guitar lessons. Try seeing your mom sleep around and hearing her have sex in the other room and then lie to you and say she hasn't had it in years and years.

Try being called "an accident" and told that you were "never supposed to exist".

Try being kicked out of your house several times and then told she didn't really mean it. My mind is so effed up that my mom's ex-boyfriend, who is like my father figure, says that once I'm out of the house we can start trying to undo the damage that she's done to my mind, the countless times she's called me worthless and said that I'm never going to amount to anything.

Try watching your mother drag your brother into the bathroom, her nails gripping his face so hard that she leaves red lines, with him sobbing and screaming and pleading her not to, and watch her grab his face with both hands and scream into it. Just for misplacing a pile of books. Try being forced to eat spoiled milk and having a backpack thrown at you which luckily just shatters the glass on the table but could have done serious damage...all because you didn't eat fast enough. Try vomiting all over yourself in the middle of the night and being screamed at for it. And try being made to eat off the floor in the cat's bowl just because you were pretending to be a cat as a game.

Try all that and see how much worse it is than what you're going through.

Not saying your dad isn't in the wrong sometimes here, but honestly when I read the first post and the one after, I found myself wondering, "Who does he think he is complaining about this?" Of course there are kids with worse lives than mine and I'm going to admit that.

I'm sorry if this causes any controversy but this is what I believe.
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